Israel’s Balkan Strategy

February 26, 2012 | Filed under: Geopolitics,Opinion & Analysis

By Dr. Josef Olmert Adjunct Professor, University of South Carolina

Amid the ocean of reports full of both misinformation and disinformation regarding Israel’s likely plans concerning Iran’s nuclear project, not enough attention is being paid to what is already happening, as opposed to what may or may not happen.

I’m referring to the interesting and seemingly successful Israeli strategy of getting close to countries surrounding Turkey. The latest was the visit of PM Netanyahu in Cyprus and the unprecedented agreement signed between the two countries which would allow Israeli troops, both naval and aerial, to be stationed in the small island nation in times of emergency.

PM Netanyahu is a right-wing Israeli leader, the lightening rod of many left-wingers all over the world. His host was President Demetris Christofias, a member of the AKEL party, the communist party of Cyprus, the only communist leader of any member nation of the EU. What seemed to be political science fiction just some time ago became a reality, and this is just one example of the shifting sands of Mediterranean and South European politics.

Some weeks ago, the leader of Muslim Albania visited in the Knesset and gave a rousing pro-Israel speech. Netanyahu also cemented close, personal relationships with former left-wing Greek PM George Papandreo, the son of Andreas Papandreo, whose term as Greece’s PM was characterized by well-displayed public enmity towards Israel. Simultaneously, Israel has solidified its friendly relations with Bulgaria and Romania.

So, what is happening? Clearly, a lot of it has to do with Turkey, the nemesis, under the Ottoman Empire of the Slavic and Christian Orthodox Balkans. In the case of Cyprus there is also the joint interest to defend the newly-discovered huge reservoirs of natural gas which the two countries intend to develop in close cooperation, much to the chagrin of Lebanon and Turkey under PM Erdogan, who goes out of his way to threaten both Israel and Cyprus in order to deter them from going ahead with their joint projects.

The old rule that the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” is surely at play here. Ironically, Erdogan’s AKP Islamic-oriented government prided itself for a foreign policy of “zero” hostile neighbors. Ambitions notwithstanding, Erdogan’s aggressive posture, coupled with the legacy of the traumatic past relations between Turkey and its Balkan neighbors, has led to a situation of maybe “zero” friends to Turkey, rather than the other way around…

PM Netanyahu and Israel adroitly sensed the opportunity opened by this state of affairs, and in a very skilful way are opening new options and opportunities for Israel’s foreign policy. There is however a bigger context and background against which we should examine this recent development. Israel, already in the pre-state days, always was eager to break the siege of hatred and boycott imposed by the neighboring Arab and Muslim states. In the old days, there was a sense that non-Muslim minorities, particularly in Lebanon and Syria could become allies of the Zionist movement and the newly-established state, but this proved futile. Such hopes were revived after the June 1967 war, and the takeover of the Golan Heights, close to the Druze Mountain of South -West Syria.

Even more so, after the Lebanon war of 1982, when the Maronite war lords seemed to be ready to sign a peace treaty with Israel. All this went in flames, and nothing materialized. In between, in the 1950′s, PM Ben-Gurion tried to create the “Periphery Alliance,” with Ethiopia, Iran and Turkey. Ethiopia was the first chip to fall, with the Marxist revolution of 1974; then went the Shah of Iran in 1979; and in recent years the strategic alliance with Turkey has been challenged — in fact shattered — by the policies of Erdogan, coupled by Israeli mishaps, such as the handling of the Marmara fiasco. While the relationships with Ethiopia were greatly restored, the relations with Turkey seem to be in a free, unstoppable fall.

Needless to mention Iran… It is also relevant to mention that the still existing peace relations with Egypt and Jordan, as fragile as they are, helped Israel, at least partly, to lift the wall of isolation forced upon her. So, the question is can the newly-forged friendly relations with Cyprus and the Balkan states be a replacement to the alliance of the past with Turkey?

It is premature to pass a definitive judgment, but the odds are that the answer is negative. Turkey is by far the strongest country in this neighborhood, economically, militarily and politically. The closure of the Turkish market for the Israeli military industries is significant, and it is inconceivable, that a bankrupt nation like Greece, impoverished states like Albania or small nations like Cyprus can make up the difference. It is highly doubtful whether PM Erdogan will change course and restore the relations of the past with Israel as a reaction to the Israeli initiatives.

It is more likely, that he views these initiatives as a challenge to Turkey’s vital national interests and his enmity to Israel will grow, rather than diminish. It is also highly doubtful how the new Israeli alliances can and will help Israel in dealing with its immediate, greatest national security threat, i.e. the Iranian nuclear project. Yet, PM Netanyahu’s frantic Balkan efforts are not entirely without merit. A country like Israel with all its problems and enemies should always extend, diversify and solidify its foreign relations.

An historic reminder though, may help Netanyahu to put it all in perspective. It was the “Iron Chancellor” Bismarck who famously commented that the “Balkans did not worth the bones of one Pomeranian Grenadier”…

Hopefully Netanyahu and his government are fully aware of what a hornet’s nest the Balkans can be and will follow their initial successes in that part of the world with the required prudence and sense of realism.

Source: huffingtonpost.com

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  • Eric R.

    Huffington Post? Please! You might as well have used Soviet-era Pravda as a source. In fact, the latter was probably LESS leftist than HuffPo.

    • http://twitter.com/Tweets4Onur Onur O.

      Well, Eric, what they told is mostly right. Israel cannot compensate the loss of Turkey even if it can form alliance with all the Balkan states and/or bankrupt Greece.

      Actually, current AKP government in Turkey is doing what NATO/USA requests for all the issues in middle-east. I believe that Turkey is appearing like an enemy of Israel just to be a rival for Iran`s Shiite domination in middle-east because an Israeli friend of Turkey would have no way to influence middle-eastern muslims. This is also a benefit for Israel. Otherwise, i don’t believe that Turkey and Israel are enemies or they can become one. This is just an illusion created as a result of the USA`s demands.

      • Eric R.

        “All in all, i don’t believe that Turkey and Israel are enemies or they can become one”

        Onur,

        As the Islamists become an ever growing portion of the population, and as the AKP strengthens and consolidates its power, I see Turkey as possibly becoming a Sunni version of Iran. It will not be a sudden revolution like Iran in 1978-79, but if you and I transport into the future about 10-15 years, I believe that we will see a Turkish Sunni theocratic state – with a nuclear program to build weapons. (If there is not a major nuclear war first, as I think there will be.)

        And such a state will be a great enemy of Israel. I have family in Israel, and they do not see relations with Turkey getting better.

        “I believe that Turkey is appearing like an enemy of Israel just to be a rival for Iran`s Shiite domination in middle-east because an Israeli friend of Turkey would have no way to influence middle-eastern sunni muslims”

        I do not believe that this is just an act by Erdogan and Davotoglu. There is plenty of evidence, based on their speeches and writings over many years, that they are extreme anti-Semites. They really believe this stuff.

        Can just Greece replace Turkey? In terms of its size and military power, no. However, Israel is building alliances with not just Greece and Cyprus, but also Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Romania, Armenia and Georgia – and even nominally Muslim Albania. Combined, the countries are not a bad swap.

      • Tyroneez

        Eric
        What is this obsession of yours with the left ???
        When it comes to national issues , it doesn’t natter if your a conservative or a socialist … Your country comes first ..
        The president of cyprus … Is from the left …
        So was the prime minister of Greece …
        Now that isreal has seen the light and abandoned it’s support of turkish claims in Cyprus and the Aegean …
        After experiencing Turkish threats and treachery for itself …

        There is no reason why Cyprus and Greece would not welcome them on board , in this long an drawn out struggle , with an aggressive neo-ottoman turkey …
        The elder papandraeou dislike of isreal was due to isreals support of and alliance with turkey , which was against Greek national interests ..it had nothing to do with anti-semetism or the fact that he was a socialist
        It makes no difference if the prime minister of isreal , greece , or cyprus were to be a socialist or a conservative …
        National survival is paramount … As isreal knows full well
        Dont you see that ??

        • Eric R.

          “What is this obsession of yours with the left ???”

          The left has murdered 100+ million people since 1917, and has enslaved billions. The left is intolerant, fascist and does not believe in democracy, and it has taken over most of the world’s universities, public schools and news media in an effort to indoctrinate the world. And it is the left, not the right, that is the source of most of the anti-Semitism in the West today.

          Oh, and remember – the Nazis were radical LEFTISTS – not radical rightists. No matter what all the Marxist professors and journalists tell you.

          As for national issues – well, I can’t speak for Greece, but the American left HATES America – it absolutely hates it. All you have to do is look at the anti-American propaganda put out by Hollywood, by writers, and by CNN and the NY Times.

          • Phoevos

            Interesting point. But let me levy the charges to understand that Republicans are not saints either.

            I am sure you are aware of the American War for Independence, right? Fought under the model of the French Revolution? And the fact that while a certain patriotic segment of Americans(Paul Revere comes to mind) was risking life and property, or certain death for Liberty, an equal part of the population was British Crown loyalists openly collaborating with the enemy.

            It looks to me that the Republicans of today are the direct descendants of such collaborators and British royalists. The same self-serving attitude prevails today, whereby mostly Republicans expect others to do the heavy lifting, take all the blows and suffer the most losses while, they(Republicans), are coolly calculating self-interest and promote situations of maximizing profit at the expense of all others.

            Now let me ask you this simple question as citizen to citizen: Who in their right mind would like to co-habitate space with such people whose only dedicated cause is self-interest?

            And isn’t American Republicanism that is a true sanctuary for dedicated nut cases promoting social division and in some cases class resentment? Not to mention about the quality of such ignoramuses such as the Christian religious right. I would die of eternal shame if I were to admit association with such manifested idiots.

            And isn’t this in fact the problem with American politics? That in essence they offer two extreme choices whereas the vast majority is in the middle? And every election cycle the faithful need to sacrifice to Zeus first in the name of hard core party dogma and then hit the road spreading a message of false brotherhood and reconciliation?

            How in the world are you going to believe a candidate that can be as hawkish as possible inside the Temple and then market himself/herself as the reasonable median? There is an inherent contradiction there, isn’t it?

            The problem with American politics is that is has only two flavors whereas the vast majority of people are of neither flavor in particular.

          • Eric R.

            Phoevos,

            You have a very exaggerated and mistaken notion of the right in America. This is because your media (that is all European media, even that which is considered “right-wing” by European standards) is all to the left of the Republican Party. Much of the European media is run my Marxists, so their “news” is not news at all, but propaganda aimed at making Republicans look like nut cases. The fact is that the European media is the one run by extremists (leftist) and nutcases, not the Republican Party.

            Basically, you have swallowed the propaganda of the Euroepan media, even as you claim to hate much of it.

          • Phoevos

            No, Eric:

            What I am trying telling you is that I understand your mistrust for the Left. Turkish infiltration and undermining of Greece is mostly done on the leftist agenda.

            Nevertheless, even such misguided and naive citizens of the left can be turned into formidable fighters.

            If I am a general and I want to build the best fighting force, ideology is not my guide. I would like to pick and choose from the entire spectrum.

            History tells us that in Napoleon’s Army there were this dedicated class of soldiers we call “complainers” (Gryniarithes in Greek). Napoleon knew them all by name and would always like to listen to them. You could also call them the leftist element of the Grand Army. Now here is the thing. These soldiers complained a lot and almost constantly, but when they held their ground nobody in the ranks would move. When they decided to attack, the whole army followed.

            So, you need to put ideology aside here. If your concern is the good of Israel as in my case is the good of Greece, all options are on the table.

            It is a strategic mistake to remove half of the options due to ideological reasons and then fight with one arm behind your back.

            When one deals with national issues, ideology is secondary.

          • Tyroneez

            Eric
            For an intelligent man , you have got everything so wrong …
            The reason the Europeans find the American right so crazy …
            Is precisely because the American right labels everyone (who doesn’t argee with their EXTREME right wing policies) as communists …
            Just as you are doing here …
            Don’t you see that is a DISTORTED and EXTREME position to hold ??
            That would mean that Tony Blair or Gordon brown , Roosevelt , Kennedy , golda mier , ben gurion etc etc were communist dictators ??
            Don’t you see that , that is just laughable …
            And a distorted world view …
            I just don’t understand why you cannot see it ??

          • Eric R.

            Tyroneez,

            I fail to understand why you are such a defender of the left, when what it has managed to do is bankrupt Europe and allow in millions of Muslim immigrants to your continent (in the name of multiculturalism) who will not assimilate, and in fact, expect the Europeans to bend to THEIR demands.

            And yes, I do tend to lump Socialists and Communists together, the way I would lump the Muslim Brotherhood, the Turkish AKP and al-Qaeda together. Socialists and Communists are bent on creating one-party states where all opposition is destroyed, including religion, and even the family is secondary to the State or the Party. The only difference is the rate at which they move toward that goal.

            And it is you, blinded by years of leftist propaganda – from your school, from your university professors, from a European media dominated by Marxist journalists, who have lost sight of reality.

            And again – the Nazis were FAR LEFT!

          • Tyroneez

            Eric
            You know full well that it’s the unregulated banking sector policies of Reagan and thatcher … That have caused the financial crisis … And not the sensible regulating tendencies of socialists governments …unbridled capitalism without stare regulation is just as dangerous as any other extreme policy …
            The unacceptable face of capitalism as one conservative british prime minister put it … Has no place in a modern state
            Othereise you end up with the whole country belonging to just a few families and 90% of the population subsisting on or below thd poverty line …
            Then all you will get is a reveolution …the French and Russian and Chinese revolutions , occurred precisely because there was not a democratic , liberal , socially conscious state in place … But an un-democratic medieval feudal and unattainable system ..
            The same is true of Cuba ..and to some extent the American revolution also had it’s routes in the inequalities of the British colonies … Contributing so much wealth , but with out any representation in the decision making process back in London ..
            As to your belief that the Moslem immigrants to Europe do not integrate … You are totally wrong ..
            Their parents were brought here in the 1970 and 1980 to fill the gap in the need for cheap labour …demanded by a Required by the burgeoning CAPITALIST western European economic boom …and not by a socialist conspiracy …
            As were my parents also …
            The second generation Moslems are today some of our best doctors , lawyers , accountants and businessmen .. And are fullly integrated into our democratic societies … A minority of crazed d tremists are not the norm …
            Crased extremists also exist amongst White and supposedly Christians …
            It’s always the case that immigrant groups , ultimately and with the passage of time , assimilate totally with the host countries dominant cultural norms …
            Even in the USA it was said that the Hispanics will take over and that half the country will be only speaking spanish … Etc etc
            But within one generation English these people only speak English and are completely assimilated , Jennifer Lopez , Gloria Estefan … Shakira … Are just dome examples for you …
            This immigration from india , pakistan , bangladesh , north africa and turkey has stopped since 1973 … Any gaps in the labour market now being filled by cheap eastern European workers

          • Tyroneez

            Yes Eric
            You are correct … The American right …
            Is far , far to the right of the average European right !!!
            That makes the American right …EXTREME RIGHT WING !!!
            And The fact that you see the European right … As tantamount to communism …
            Should Prove this point to you …
            The average american right winger is What we in europe call part of the lunatic fringe …
            To hear your distorted view of party politics , is quite worrying …considering how we agree on foreign affairs
            By the way talkin of foreign affairs , it was Stalins soviet union that first recognised the state of israel back in 1948 …
            Long before the USA did …
            I mention it , just to show , that necessity can make for some strange bedfellows …
            Just like 30 million Russians died , to save Europe from the Nazis … So those commi ruskis were not allways so bad ??

          • Tyroneez

            Eric
            This is exactly what I’m talking about …
            You are confusing dictators with the left … Just because stalin and mao claimed to be leftists doesn’t mean they were anything of the sort … They were just RED EMPERORS …
            They were everything which is anathema to the left …
            Hitler too was just an Another german emperor with absolute powers …
            These were EXTREMISTS dictators with the power of life and death over everyone in their realms … No different from any Medieval monarch …
            Just because they used leftist or rightist labels or political movements to gain power , doesn’t mean they were anything more than psychotic dictators …
            There are plenty of examples of democratic leftist leaders , including those in israel itself … I suppose you are now going to tell me that Golda Meir or Ben gurion were antisemetic or not democrats , just because they were of the left ??
            Don’t you see you are not equating correctly …

          • Eric R.

            Sorry Tyrone, but you are basically giving me the classic excuse about Marxism and Communism — “It works, it’s just that the right people haven’t tried it.”

            As for Meir and Ben-Gurion, they are Socialists from a different era, when the left actually supported Israel (or at least pretended that they did.)

            The present day Israeli Labor leader – Ehud Barak – has no such illusions.

          • Tyroneez

            Eric
            Why do you keep , pushing everything together …
            Being a democratic liberal socialist , as I am …
            Is not the same as a Marxist or communist …the latter 2 require a dictatorship to be workable …
            And for you to put me ( a life long believer in democracy , in the same boat as STALIN and MAO ) is frankly unacceptable …
            And if you genuinely think that President Obama , or Hillary Clinton are communist dictators …( because they rightly believe that we all as fellow citizens must look after all our people , especially the more vulnerable ones ) Than all I can say is that you have lost touch with reality …
            Perhaps you have been listening to FOX NEWS far more than is good for you / lol

          • Canavar

            Tyroneez, I agree totally. As I said to you earlier (due to a mutual misunderstanding) that pro-choice, tax the rich,… liberal Democrats are poles apart from the radical leftists in America, let alone Joe “Genocide” Stalin. I grow to hate the radical leftists when I was in college. Their heroes were Che Guevera, Chairman Mao, and Ho Chi Minh–all, of course, Communists. They even openly in the street sang a song called “Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh, Ho Chi Minh is going to win”. Then and now I had no use for the Viet Nam War. But this is outright treason, and as anyone who knows the period knows that they did far worse.
            Today their ideological children and grand children–and few relics from the Vietnam age like Chomsky and Zunnes– are saying the same things but now its about the “genocide” of the “Palestinian people” –who’s “plight” we hear about constantly– by the “racist, apartheid” state of Israel.
            Luckily now–in contrast to 1964-1975– most American don’t know they exist.

          • Tyroneez

            @ canavar above
            Most of what you say here , is basically correct …
            But for a citizen to oppose his governments/ administrations … Mistaken foreign policy ( which he genuinely believes is wrong , and ultimately counterproductive to his country’s interests ) does not make him a traitor … On the contrary it makes him more of a patriot …
            And the vietnam war , was obviously one of those ..as it turned out , it was not vital to US interests
            And just because many Israelis and none Israeli Jews …firmly believe that the continued occupation of the palestinians ,works against the interests of Israel … Does not make them traitors …
            Or enemies of the Jewish state …
            I also think that in the long run they will be proved to be correct

          • Canavar

            Tyroneez,I like so many students of that time protested and was vehemently opposed to the Vietnam war. It was one of the most disgraceful periods in US history and we got what we deserved, a Communist regime in all of Vietnam. Also that regime has turned out to be totally benign as far as American interests are concerned, proving what all of us new already–that Johnson and the other big wigs who tried to sell us on the “vital” nature of South Vietnam remain “free” (meaning being governed by two worthless American lackey dictators)–were total liars or fools or both.
            Also my wife and I were just as opposed to the Iraq war–as soon as Bush began hinting at it, long before it started. It too has turned out to be a disaster–soon to be joined by the next disaster Afghanistan, a war we opposed just as violently. This doesn’t mean I’m a gutless traitor. I love America above all else, and like all men in my very large extended family I would have served gladly in WWII. But forgetting the misery it caused to the Iraqis and Afghans, it was a blow for America which will take a long time to recover from.
            As far as Israel-Palestine is concerned I, of course agree with you. Peace would give the Palestinians the state they deserve, and it will take an albatross off Israel’s back. I’m sure that Israel’s reputation will greatly improve worldwide. But a state where Hamas is part of the government is unacceptable. Also the state, hopefully, would become a respectable nation; not another undemocratic, impoverished, nproductive, Jew hating Muslim entity.
            At the minimum, it has to have a true cold peace with Israel. I’m sure that if terrorists keep coming in from Palestine,
            Israel won’t tolerate it, and look out Palestinians.
            Also I don’t take back my statement of treason. The Ho Chi Minh gang was aiding and abetting the enemy. That’s treason. One can protest the war without that, as the vast majority of protesters did.
            I hope and trust that you will agree with much of what I said.
            At least you will know (to use an atrocious American expression) where I’m coming from.

          • Tyroneez

            Canavar
            Now I fully understand were your coming from …
            And agree with everything you say …
            Except two vital points ..
            1 / the ho chi min gang ( they would only be traitors if the were assisting in the destruction of America ) which as you quite rightly point out , the mistaken belief that a north Vietnamese victory , would lead to the destruction of the USA was totally untrue …
            It was obvious at time , that the pointless deaths of 50,000 young American boys in a far off land …Was the real treachery …
            Not to mention deaths of 2 million innocent vietnamise civilians ..
            2/ the nature of a Palestinian government … Is not the issue …
            The west bank has a moderate Palestinian administration … YET IS UNDER OCCUPATION …??
            And the Gaza strip has and extremist government but IS NOT UNDER OCCUPATION …??
            By your criteria the occupation should be the otherway round ??
            Likewise southern Lebanon is run by hizbolah … Should ghat be under direct isreali occupation …
            Obviously the answer is NO
            So you see , it’s better for israel to pull out of the west bank … And if they too go the same way as Hamas and hisbollah …
            Than let them …
            Israel is fully capable of retaliation , when necessary …
            Their rockets are like bee stings on an elephants back …and pose no threat to israels security …
            Holding on to the west bank , only increases the suspicion that it is not done for security reasons … But for the purpose of usurping the best land , and water supplies for israel , via the ever increasing , illegal settlements …
            It actually in the long run will prove to be detrimental to the full acceptance of a Jewish state in the region …
            And is blatantly counter productive …
            If as I do you support a secure state for the Jewish people in historic palestine …because it’s the best way to gaurantee the safety of all Jewish people , around the world …then ending the occupation , and placing Israel on the right side of UN resolutions … Is of paramount importance …
            So that Israel can concentrate it’s efforts in dealing with the real and developing threats to it’s existence IE ..A NUCLEAR IRAN and soon to be NUCLEAR TURKEY …and join with us the Greeks … Who have been waiting a long long time for the west and israel to wake up to the Turkish treat ..to regional peace …
            The Palestinians are only a side issue … And have Been for a very long time …
            Now I invite you to agree with me fully , in my very sincere analysis ???

          • Phoevos

            Tyro:

            The argument that there is Palestine and hence Palestenian people is a flawed one. These are fabraicated and artificial constructs of Arab and Islamist propaganda. Israelis deserve their ancestral homelands just like we deserve the lands of Asia Minor.

          • Tyroneez

            Phoevos
            When I refer to Palestine in my comments …I am talking about the British mandated territory of Palestine … Occupied by the British army in 1918 and abandoned by the same British army in 1948 …
            To say it never existed is absurd …
            In 1918 it had a 98% indeginous Arab majority … On the whole Descended mainly from the ancient jews who never left when judaism was banned by the roman rulers in 70AD and various other groups , samaritans , greeks ( hence the arab orthodox of today ) etc etc
            For you to arbitrarily state that they do not belong there is outrageous …
            Even the Israelis do not claim all of this mandated Palestine …
            The Jews were only ever promised a Jewish state in a part of Palestine …
            Which they now have in full measure in fact 76% of it … Much more even than the unjust 1947 UN partition plan …
            As the Jews are a special historical case and a jewish homeland is a neccessary requirement for humanity to be at ease with its conciense , then israel must be supported in it’s existence …
            But the 5 million Arabised but indigenous peoples who legally reside and have title , within the Borders of this mandated territory … Need to have their rights and existence guarantee aswell …
            Their leaders have accepted the existence of israel on 74% of the territory …
            A monumental concession which israel should embrace wholeheartedly …
            And in the passage of time israel will be viewed by the while Arab region as a welcome asset and not as an enemy …
            After all most Israelis are of Arab country origins anyway …
            This is the way forward …
            Just because I believe that it’s best for isreal to end the occupation of the west bank … Does not mean I am anti-Israeli or anti -semetic…
            In fact the opposite is true

          • Canavar

            I agree with almost all you said but Israel won’t tolerate terrorists coming in and staging brutal murders. A Palestinian terrorist brutally stabbed to death a whole Israeli family–it was big news in Israel and I think it even filtered into the US– husband, pregnant wife, and an infant child. I can assure you that the Israelis won’t tolerate that and would use “excessive force” in response, killing lots of terrorists as well as lots of innocent people.
            You saw that I loath many of the things that our leaders are done. But as you see from me governments aren’t the people. I’m sure many Palestinians are very nice people who loathe the terrorists.
            It’s also true of the Turks. My Turkish friends are very nice people who have no use for the hate-filled, reckless, and delusional Erdogan gang–but what can they do? Also when I lived in Turkey I met some of the nicest people, you will ever meet. I’m sure millions of Turks are still like that. So governments aren’t people. I feel sorry for the good people of Turkey.
            I have read Eric’s posts and he always casts the Jews as victims. True the Holocaust was so much from hell that one still has difficulty comprehending it But now the Jews are among the world’s most vibrant ethnic groups. Jews won five Nobel science prizes this year. It’s absurd to think of them as victims
            Jews aren’t the only people to experience mass murders and unspeakable horrors. I just wrote a post describing another great injustice and mass murders.
            It was about the 1,000 year destruction of Greek Anatolian civilization by the Turks. It’s probably very incomplete and with errors. Please read and correct. And I would greatly appreciate any comment
            Incidentally I greatly admire the ancient Greeks, who along with the Jews and Romans founded Western civilization.
            It is hard for me not to admire their modern descendants.
            It’s always nice to talk to you. You are someone I can disagree with but still respect.
            We’ll meet again on this excellent posting site.

          • Tyroneez

            Dear canavar
            That’s exactly what I’m saying … With a bit of tweeking …We agree on everything ..
            Your point on crazed extremists , murdering the innocent family … This kind of Hideous atrocity happens the world over ..
            We had it here in London … But occupying Pakistan is not going to make any difference …
            That’s why I say israel Doesn’t need to occupy the west bank directly …israel knows how to retaliate hard … When it feels it has too …
            It has proved it in south Lebanon and gaza …
            It tries to pinpoint the leadership of it’s enemies … As best it can although … Heavy handedness and overreaction have marked these interventions …. I know it’s only because of the need to keep israeli casualties to a minimum , because to loose more soldiers and airmen than the initial terrorist victims would be pointless … Nevertheless …refinement and accuracy are the way forward … Permanent occupations are as you quite rightly point out … An albatross on isreals and the wests backs …
            And yes I too can deferentiate between the people and their governments …
            I am of Greek Cypriot decent born and living in London all my life … Most of my friends are Turkish Cypriots , Kurds , Turks and Iranians …
            So when I make critical comments here of Turkish or Iranian foreign and national policy … I am carefull to explain that I oppose their governments policy and not the Turkish people … Who I want to see have a glorious future ..
            Even In my discussions with my Turkish friends I point out to them that
            The Greek national (conciseness / psyche) emphasises the Greeks contribution to humanity , in the cultural field , art , history , biology , philosophy etc etc .. In fact in all the civilising deciplines …of which modern Greeks are very proud
            Also to some extant the military heritage of ancient sparta athens , phillip and Alexander …
            But all this is viewed as a liberation reaction to Persian threats and aggression …. Not forgetting that xerxes invaded Greece first after 100 years of oppressing Greek cities in Anatolia …
            And that is exactly how the neo ottoman Turkish foreign policy is viewed by Greeks today …hence the high defence spending …. In response to turkeys extreme and heavy military build up …
            In turkey on the other hand … The national conciseness is routed in the idea of unprovoked conquest and domination of other peoples and their lands …
            This is in direct conflict to Greek and modern western European values …
            Although pre war Germany and japan and italy suffered from the same syndrome … And look were that lead too
            It took a complete overhaul of the post war education system in these three countries before things could change for the better …
            This never happened in turkey as (the treaty of sevre) requiring such a fundamental shift in turkeys outlook …
            Was never implemented …in fact it’s abandonment in 1922 only re- inforced the Turkish belief in militant belligerence …toasted it’s neighbours ..
            Thus turkey at it’s core remains unreformed and very much still a revisionist entity …
            Who knows were it will lead us all … Probably to disaster …

          • Tyroneez

            Eric
            Again you are confused , the American left which happens to be in power at the moment …is opposed to the republican party’s foreign policy …
            Because it believes it is not in the best interests of america …that does not make them un-American
            To say that is just rediculous …
            That’s like saying that every Turk who opposes , the Turkish governments foreign policy … Is a traitor …
            even though this foreign policy is clearly bad for turkey and dangerous for the whole region …
            Surely that makes him more of a patriot … Not less …
            The same is true of Iran … The left is the fiercest opponents of the ayottolahs …
            Trust me on this … The American rights mistaken pathological hatred of democratic socialism … Has only enabled extremist religious groups to come to power in both Iran and afganistan …
            By supporting the undemocratic SHAH for so long and opposing the NAJIBULLAH government in Kabul … Because of the imagined fear of the left … Has brought us nothing but disaster ..
            By the way TONY BLAIR is a socialist and GORDAN BROWN both firm democrats and allies of the USA ???

      • Tyroneez

        Onur
        What a lot of nonsense

      • Chris Papageorgiou

        Dear Onur,

        It is true that Israel cannot completely compensate for the loss of Turkey, however, this does not mean it has nothing to gain from its cooperation with Balkan states as a counterbalance to the change in Turkish policy and the adoption of a clear anti – Israeli strategy by the Erdogan Government. Israel certainly will gain much from its cooperation with Cyprus and the joint exploitation of natural gas resources. Military cooperation with Greece is already paying dividends as the two countries are expanding it on all levels. Hopefully Turkey will come around one day and Jerusalem and Ankara will once again restore their ties. However, this will not be done at the expense of the newly created relations with Balkan states.

      • Tyroneez

        Onur
        What on earth are you talking about here …
        What do you expect israel to do … Stand by while Turkish warships threaten it’s gas fields in it’s own EEZ …
        Also the (obama , clinton administration in the USA) is directly supporting the Arab spring … Because they know that to oppose it would be disastrous for US interests … It doesn’t need turkey to do it for them by proxy …
        Turkey thinks it is perusing it’s own interests in this matter … By messrs erdogan and davatoglou amateurishly playing the Friend to the Arabs … All the while declaring they want to re-create the ottoman dominance over them ??
        Do they think the Arabs are that stupid ??
        And for this dubious enterprise they have foolishly allianated the indespensable Israeli and US alliance , …
        Has proved to be a diplomatic blunder of monumental proportions …equalled only by the folly of Enver and the young Turks entry into WWI on the side of the Germans … Against their western friends ..
        Neither You or the Turkish government are fooling anybody … Except of course the poor Turkish people …
        And further more far from Israel losing irreplaceable turkey … It is turkey that has lost irreplaceable israel , along with all the benefits , that came along with that …
        And if ever the Turkish people finally realise , what you already know to be the truth …( hence your feeble attempts to gloss over it )
        IE the full extent of this disaster
        Mr erdogan and davatoglu will be lucky if they escape the gallows
        The fate of Messrs Menderes and zorlu spring to mind

      • Canavar

        We have a vulgar word in English for your post: Bull $h!t.

    • Tyroneez

      Eric
      What is this obsession of yours with the left ???
      When it comes to national issues , it doesn’t natter if your a conservative or a socialist … Your country comes first ..
      The president of cyprus … Is from the left …
      So was the prime minister of Greece …
      Now that isreal has seen the light and abandoned it’s support of turkish claims in Cyprus and the Aegean …
      After experiencing Turkish threats and treachery for itself …

      There is no reason why Cyprus and Greece would not welcome them on board , in this long an drawn out struggle , with an aggressive neo-ottoman turkey …
      The elder papandraeou dislike of isreal was due to isreals support of and alliance with turkey , which was against Greek national interests ..it had nothing to do with anti-semetism or the fact that he was a socialist
      It makes no difference if the prime minister of isreal , greece , or cyprus were to be a socialist or a conservative …
      National survival is paramount … As isreal knows full well
      Dont you see that ??

  • Leon7453

    Probably the worst article I’ve read

  • Tyroneez

    And what does the dear professor suggest ??
    That isreal should bow to the demands of a belligerent Neo-ottoman turkey …??
    And just surrender the eastern Mediterranean to messrs erdogan and davatoglou ?? And their absurd dreams of empire building ??
    Little Cyprus , half occupied and defenceless has refused to give in to turkish bullying …
    And likewise Greece …
    What makes anybody think that isreal should do so ??
    The same was said when the shah fell in Iran …
    That Iran was to big a loss for isreal …
    But Iran and turkey were never going to be true friends to isreal … It was all a shame and a waste of time …
    In fact isreal has found to it’s cost that with all the technological and military assistance it has given to both these countries …
    It has only enabled them to actually become more of a threat to it’s existance than the Arabs …
    But they will find to their cost that isreal has other options , the Kurds for one (with Israeli support) could destroy both turkey and Iran …
    And now that isreal has realised that a small independent Cyprus , sitting in the middle of the eastern meditarrenian EEZ , is much more preferrable than a hostile turkey …
    It’s long delayed alliance with Greece , not only will compensate for the loss of the Turkish link …
    But is much the better option , because unlike turkey …
    greece will not be seeking hegemony over isreal …
    So this cooperation with Cyprus and Greece comes at no cost …
    And only benefits
    The professor needs to think again

  • Tyroneez

    Eric
    What is this obsession of yours with the left ???
    When it comes to national issues , it doesn’t natter if your a conservative or a socialist … Your country comes first ..
    The president of cyprus … Is from the left …
    So was the prime minister of Greece …
    Now that isreal has seen the light and abandoned it’s support of turkish claims in Cyprus and the Aegean …
    After experiencing Turkish threats and treachery for itself …

    There is no reason why Cyprus and Greece would not welcome them on board , in this long an drawn out struggle , with an aggressive neo-ottoman turkey …
    The elder papandraeou dislike of isreal was due to isreals support of and alliance with turkey , which was against Greek national interests ..it had nothing to do with anti-semetism or the fact that he was a socialist
    It makes no difference if the prime minister of isreal , greece , or cyprus were to be a socialist or a conservative …
    National survival is paramount … As isreal knows full well
    Dont you see that ??

    • Eric R.

      Why did you feel a need to post this three times?

      • Tyroneez

        Sorry Eric
        I only meant to post it once / but somehow I could not get it out removed from my reply box …
        Apologies

  • Sikoseto

    The net is closing in on the Turks and they do not like it one little bit.

    Israel should also reach out to Serbia and Armenia and whoever else despises Turks

  • Canavar

    These is especially to Tyroneeze, who I usually agree with, and to Eric who I often agree with.
    This is also to Onur who I never agree with, but who beautifully illustrates the points in this note.
    I know Turkey very well. I lived there when I was in my early 20′s (why is a long story–it’s due to unlikely combination of events), I speak and write Turkish, and still have strong Turkish ties–not every Turk is an Erdogan fan(atic).
    I can tell you when I was there, and I’m sure ,Turks: 1. were hyper nationalistic 2. they glorified war and military prowess; they viewed themselves as the greatest warriors in the world 3. they had an “honor culture”. I found about it my first day in Ankara, when I had temporary lodgings in the Adana Yurdu– a dorm for college guys from Adana, studying in Ankara. These “Adanalilar” soon pulled out their knives and hand guns, and then I found out about Turkish “honor” . I learned that the weapons were mainly protect their sisters’, and so forth, “honor”. (I hope not for honor killings.)
    I also found out the Turks were good haters. They hated you Greeks very intensely. The second worse thing (after a pig) to call a Turk was a Yunan, a Greek. The remnants of the once large and thriving Greek Anatolian community were legally confined to Istanbul. To give the Turks credit, at that time antisemitism was non-existent in Turkey. They have now corrected that oversight, in spades.
    Also Turks as a whole disrespected Arabs (the present honeymoon won’t last–not one more, let alone 400 more years ) . They view themselves as a race of warriors and rulers, and the Arabs as a race of cowards and subjects.
    All of these unpleasant Turkish traits I saw have been greatly magnified since Turkey’s “economic miracle”. It has inflated their egos enormously. In their minds, the Turks are again Ottomans and/or members of mighty Turkish Central Asian hordes. They take their Central Asian “ancestry” very seriously. Thus the names Attila (the Hun), Cengiz (Ghengiz Khan), and Timur (Tamerlane) are still used in modern Turkey. I deeply think that their “ancestry” and mourning of their former greatness has much more to do with Turkey’s odious behavior, no longer confined to their neighborhood but now worldwide, than Islam
    Also I actually think that at least some of this this neo- Ottoman hubris and behavior is a mask for a deep rooted sense of inferiority. I told Onur that the Turks are a mediocre people with no contribution to civilization, since they are. Onur never replied because he couldn’t refute the truth. There ARE no Turkish Charles Darwin’s, Enrico Fermi’s, Jonas Salk’s, Marie Curie’s, Dmitri Mendeleyev’s (those of you who took chemistry know him very well), Crick’s and Watson’s and so so many more (I’m a scientist–so these examples, but it’s true in all fields.) I think their grandiosity helps them to block out such unpleasant facts.
    A second example of this grandiosity and masked inferiority complex is the Mavi Marmora incident. The Turks, who murdered 30 Kurds the day after they kicked out the Israeli ambassador, almost all felt the incident was a “national humiliation”. They are still obsessed with it. The Mavi Marmora has been turned into a shrine. Books have been written about it and documentaries have appeared on Turkish TV. Why? It is intolerable that “inferior” Jews killed mighty Turks. It threatened their delusional view of themselves. One response was the rabid antisemitism in Turkey (which according to a Hurriyet columnist is felt by the majority of Turks), born in large part I think from wounded pride, not Muslim hatred. A second response is the Turks have become obsessed with Israel. (Most Israelis in contrast pretty much couldn’t care less about Turkey.) Outwardly they brag incessantly about their about their ability to demolish “cowardly” Israel in a day or two (Google You Tube Turkey -Israel War especially the “Quit Whining” site).
    But their bluster in September and silence since, suggests other wise. For home consumption, Davetoglu has tried to restore Turkish “honor” of by making statements like “Turkey has brought Israel to its knees”. The above story , the exact opposite. “It is more likely, that he Erdogan views these initiatives as a challenge to Turkey’s vital national interests.” True indeed. Deep down Erdogan, Davetoglu, and Gul know that Israel is a force to be reckoned with, and in the process of encircling Turkey. As well as endangering national interests, it is unthinkable ego wise. To the “heirs” of Cengiz and Suleyman it is utterly intolerable. Their inability to do anything about it but rage, and become vicious antisemites, is an encouraging sign for Cyprus.
    Anyway I wanted to write a small letter about this, and then a bigger letter showing how the Turkish psyche is leading the country to self-destruction. I just got carried away. I apologize to anyone whose time I wasted.

    • Phoevos

      Canavar:

      It was worth reading. Since you relate to Eric try explaning to him the errors of ideological adherence. He is a foe of the left and liberalism and friend of US Republicanism.

      He constantly complains that the Greeks are not conservative enough for Israel’s taste . Let him then know that the next Greek government will be a conservative government lead by Samaras but Eric needs to warm up to the idea of some strange bed fellows. Try explaining to him please that there are no pre-packaged political solutions one can buy at a supermarket and that in real life when you get lemons you make lemonade.

      http://ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite3_1_22/02/2012_429372

      • Canavar

        Phoevos. i wrote a post on this. I told him that he is crazily associating everyday Democrats (I’ve been a JFK democrat all my life.) with the totalitarian extreme left. They have as much to do with each other as Socrates and Santa Clause.
        Incidentally perhaps you will find this interesting. One of the very few worthwhile Republicans in the US Senate Maine’s Olympia Snow is retiring because she can’t take anymore of the partisan gridlock in Congress.–nor can almost anyone else. She wants to accomplish something, so she’s leaving. But I want to tell you something that Olympia said because you might like it. Hint: Snowe is her married name. She said: I’m not leaving in fear. Like my SPARTAN ANCESTORS I’m a fighter!

        • Eric R.

          Canavar,

          There is a name for JFK Democrats today. They are called “Republicans.” Think about it – JFK supported tax cuts to encourage economic growth, and believed in a vigorous defense of American democracy against Communism (or Islamists). The Democratic Party has moved WAY to the left in the last 50 years. Would somebody with JFKs views be a Democrat today? Here’s a hint – Joe Lieberman holds similar views, and was beaten in the Democratic Primary for the Senate in 2006 in CT, and won his Senate seat as an independent.

          As Ronald Reagan said (who was a Democrat until age 51) – “I didn’t leave the party of JFK, the party of JFK left me.”

          Look at the Democratic party today. It is an out-and-out Socialist Party. It is well to the left of where it even was 20 years ago under Bill Clinton, never mind where it stood under JFK.

          • http://twitter.com/Tweets4Onur Onur O.

            So, which republican candidate is better to you?

            Mitt Romney who baptized his dead father-in-law with mambo-jumbo in his graveyard just because he was an agnostic when he was alive? OR Rick Santorum who said that he puked when he listened JFK`s speech about separate church&state? OR the Gingrich guy who appears to be teleported from medieval era to the present day?

            To me, it appears like US politics is even more fcked than Greece in terms of the quality of candidates (for the ones who have a chance to be elected)

          • Sikoseto

            LOL Nah Turkey is the best at everything your politicians are the greatest, all hail the mighty Turk for they are the best at everything and nobody shall stop them…..LOL

          • Phoevos

            Sikoseto:

            One small question. Where is Turkey?

          • Yiannako

            i think somewhere near Mallorca….

          • Phoevos

            Thanks. I thought it was Minorca. Now I get it.

          • ben solo

            Turkey is there where you are but you dont know it yet

          • Eric R.

            LOL! Onur, I don’t think that a country that elected a delusional Islamofascist dreaming of resurrecting the Ottoman Empire has any right to complain about our candidates.

            Oh, and in case you are wondering, I will support any Republican (except Ron Paul) over the idiot we have in the White House now, but when it comes to the Republican primary in my state, I plan to vote for Gingrich (if he is still in the race).

            Onur, you’re smarter than that. Stop believing what the Turkish media tells you. It’s as bad as any media in Europe.

          • Phoevos

            Gingrich is the best candidate, however unelectable due to his private life.

            You know of course he is Scottish with Gingrich been the German name of the father who adopted him.

          • Canavar

            Actually Eric This is unfortunately part true. I, ten minutes ago, read the talk backs to a NY Times article on an Israeli strike on Iran. They were nearly all vehemently anti-Israel in all of the standard ways. Israel is pro-oil companies (a new one to me), Israel is an albatross on America and it always has been (not exactly new to put it mildly); we are supporting Israel when we should be keeping the money for our people (Yes, Israel is “devastating” America financially to the tune of $3 billion a year in weapons. As usual they forgot to mention that this is chump change to a country with a $15 TRILLION deficit. Maybe they are too stupid to know that 15,000/3 =5000. So if they made the typical American salary $50,000/yr they would be giving Israel about two McDonald’s quarter pounder with cheese meals/year. Also they forgot to mention that Muslim states get far more than $3billion total–Egypt alone gets 2 billion, not to mention Pakistan, Jordan, Iraq Afghanistan, and of course the “plightful” “Palestinian people”. Further our money to Israel is 1.5% of their GDP); not to mention that we will be “endangering” ourselves because of the “power” of American Jews; and, of course we will rewarding the source of occupation and oppression of those same “Palestinian people”; not to mention that Iran won’t attack anyone since, for example,”American intelligence sources say Iran isn’t building a bomb, and even better if Iran had the bomb Israel could no longer “oppress” and “bully”
            its “neighbors”, and on and on.

            Yes you’re right the party of America loving, incredibly gutsy JFK has to some extent become the party of appeasement and
            suffocating POLITICAL CORRECTNESS led by… But there are still plenty of America loving Democrats of the type I mentioned.
            Incidentally, I am curious if you read my comments on Turkey.
            I would appreciate your comments. I know Onur would call me an idiot, or someone who claims to know about Turkey but knows nothing, or someone who knows something but is a lying Turk hating racist.
            None of these things are true. I’m not a liar and anything but an idiot. I’m not a racist. But I do know my bird!

          • Eric R.

            It is hard for me to comment about Turkey to someone who has actually lived there, and has seen it both from without and from within. I’ve only met a handful of Turks in my life – all either at college or in my professional life – and they all seemed OK (America probably gets the better educated Turks, while the poorer ones go to Germany).

            But I am not at all happy with the change of Turkey into an Islamic state (it is not there yet, but getting there) – bad for Israel, bad for Jews, bad for America, and I think even bad for Turkey.

          • Tyroneez

            Eric
            Why you think that leftists are not patriotic is beyond me …
            In fact the far left extremists you are always mentioning here IE Stalin , Mao , ho chi min were the most extreme nationalists ..
            And that worst extreme nationalist , which you claim as a leftist hitler
            There is acleft , right and centre world view … When it comes to economic policy …
            But when it comes to patriotism or it’s uglier sister nationalism and it’s even uglier sister racism …dictators are up the with the best of them … Wether from the extreme left or right …
            As to your implied , point that president Obama and Hilary Clinton … Are not defending American interests …Just because they are not invading countries every week ..
            They believe that supporting democracy to emerge in the hostile parts of the world … Is ultimately good for America …there are other ways of bringing democracy without invasion and occupation , as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan Were that policy turned out to be a disaster and had the completely opposite effect

          • Eric R.

            “Why you think that leftists are not patriotic is beyond me …”

            Tyrone, you are not in America, listening to the leftist crap spewing out of our media, but believe me, our leftists elites are NOT patriotic. They HATE America. Their allegiance is to Socialism, not the United States.

            Period. End of story. End of argument.

          • Tyroneez

            Dear Eric
            You are wrong again , both Reagan and Lieberman moved to the right ….. And it’s the republican party that has lurched sharply to the far right …. You have only got to listen to sarah plain and santorum … And fox news …To see that ….
            As to the democrats moving to the far left …you are mistaken …when it comes to economic policy , the American democratic party , is barely left of centre …in fact far more centrist than Roosevelt ever was … (with his necessary federal government interventions in the economy) without which it would have taken 50 years to pull out of the great depression …
            Federal government intervention is often necessary ( that’s why you have a federal UNION … And a federal president …and a federal constitution …
            Otherwise you might just as well have 50 separate states , and chaos …
            Now when it comes to foreign policy … Both parties are equally patriotic , and look after American interests …
            Where you get the idea that the democrats are anti American .. Is bewildering ??
            Just because they can see that invading countries all over the place …is counter productive to Americas long term interest … Doesn’t mean they are anti American ..
            Please rest assured that Iran and even turkey will be restrained , if and when it becomes neccessary ..

  • Canavar

    “Greek Deputy Foreign Minister Demetri Dollis and Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon, who severely damaged Turkish-Israeli bilateral ties when he humiliated a visiting Turkish official, were also present at the event”.
    This is from today’s Hurriyet. It is an example of how deviant the Turk s’ view of their world from anyone else is. . Ayalon “severely damaged Turkish-Israel ties when he humiliated…” What a joke. ” Humiliated”–that’s pure Turkey.
    Incidentally the meeting was about coordinating the lobbying of Greek and Jewish Americans in the US. Why on earth do the Turks care about such a minor thing occurring in the distant US. As I said in my note, Turks are now obsessed with Israel. I’m sure it is “humiliating” to them to have Jews join force with the people they hate the most.

    • Eric R.

      ” I’m sure it is “humiliating” to them to have Jews join force with the people they hate the most.”

      In today’s Turkey, Jews ARE the people they hate the most.

  • Phoevos

    Unfortunately US Republicans are some of the dumbest people on the face of this earth. Everytime they open their mouths, frogs come out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfb9f7yFYgw

  • Phoevos

    No question about it. The New Game is on:

    http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=137190

  • Phoevos
    • Tyroneez

      Dear phoevos
      There is a valid reason for the Israeli stance …
      When a country or a people face (or believe they are facing) a survival or death situation than they are prepared to exert every effort in the search for security …
      Israel is forced by its position to spend 60% of its 90 billion GDP on defence … As much as britain with a GDP of over 2000 billion ..
      Likewise Greece spends 3% to 4 % of it’s 350 billion GDP on defence …were the average European country spends only 1%
      As they say necessity is the mother of invention …
      Likewise the north Korean regime spends 80% of GDP on defence as it feels very much under threat from it’s more successful mirror image in south Korea … It’s ability to transfer that insecurity to it’s population is the key to it’s remarkable ability to get the people to sacrifice everything including food self sufficiency … To blindly support the huge military expenditure …
      It’s a prime example of how governments can influence their people sometimes to extremes , even to self destruction …
      Likewise Iran felt under threat of dismemberment … With two anglo American armies permanantly on it’s borders …hence it’s mistaken efforts to obtain nuclear security ..
      But what is turkeys reasons for it’s unprecidented military arms build up … It’s traditional enemy , Russia is much deminished and friendly …
      It has the backing of America and western Europe …nobody is poised against it
      It can only be dreams of empire and expansion …reminiscent of fascist Italy and Nazi Germany and imperial japan …
      Such an anachronistic stance is unprecedented in modern history … Except for maybe Sadam Hussein in Iraq …
      But sooner or later these ambitions will come up against already established powers and spheres of influence … Culminating in a clash …
      Saddam Hussein over Kuwait …
      And turkeys recent clash with israel over Cypriot and eastern medditeranean EEZ …
      For turkeys neo imperial plans , the gamble is only worth taking if there is at least an even chance of victory …
      I’m afraid turkeys I’ll advised venture into big power games will only end in disaster …
      As Churchill quite rightly said of Italy at the Versailles conference in 1919 …
      The Italians have a big appetite … But no teeth …

  • Canavar

    Wrong. Jews are a new hatred. The hatred of the Greeks dates to more than 1000 years. It began when Alp Arslan (Heroic Lion–a hero to the Turks) stormed out of Central Asia and won the Battle of Manzikert in 1071 nd entered Eastern Anatolia One very important thing practically unknown in US is it began unknown in the US is that began the genocide of the great Greek civilization in Anatolia ( along with the murder of countless Greeks), a huge tragedy that very few Americans have any knowledge of. As the Turks proceeded westward the genocide continued since a very large number of Greeks refused to give up their language, religion, and civilization and be “Turkified”. The next big step was the conquest of Constantinople 1453 (?) by Sultan Mehmet,– and replacement of the Byzantine empire by the first stages of the Ottoman empire.
    All through the Middle ages and into modern times the Anatolian Greeks were persecuted by the Turks but the genocide was finished in the 20′th century. The Greek population in Anat0lia in 1900 was 2 million The next big step was the forced population exchange of about 1.7 million Greeks for about 400,00 Turks. The Greeks of Anatolia had some of their genetic makeup from the ancient Greeks, but they were a mixture of many races In contrast the Greeks of Greece are the direct descents of the Greeks of antiquity–something which they should be very proud of). Still there were still about two hundred thousand Greeks in Turkey after the population exchange. The number g5radually dwindled in the 20′th century, probably because of persecution by Turkey. The business reached a head in 1957 when the Greek’s had their Kristal Nacht, instigated by then Prime Minister Menderes who was eventually executed. The fragment of the great Greek Anatolian population consists of about 2,500 people mainly living in the Asian half of Istanbul. When I was there the Greeks were by law permitted to live only in Istanbul, but that law was rarely enforced. So there is a small Greek community living in Izmir. The same was true of the Armenian remnant. I met only one Armenian and no Greeks when I was in Turkey. But I was told that both ethnic groups are far better educated, far more cultured, and far more productive than comparable Turks.
    So Eric you are always focusing on Jews. But the Greeks and Armenians also had terrible circumstances in Turkey–except for the Armenian Genocide it wasn’t as unthinkable as the Holocaust but it still was incredibly bad.

  • Paul

    …from Israeli security analyst Mark Langfan:
    http://www.marklangfan.com/westerntheater2.html

    • Tyroneez

      Paul
      None of this scenario is accurate …
      Firstly / Iran can hit israel with missiles from it’s own territory … It doesn’t need to place missiles in the west bank to do this …hence israels concerns regarding nuclear Iran ..
      Secondly / Iran could not topple Jordan , with out the west intervening to stop them … Besides they would have to pass through Iraq first …
      Thirdly / of Iran was capable of using chemical weapons against isreal … It could already do it from hisbollah controlled southern Lebanon or gaza …
      Fourthly / turkey is a member of NATO … It would never intervene to stop turkey attacking Cyprus
      The only defence is an isreali cypriot alliance outside of NATO
      Which now seems to be in place … Thank god

  • Phoevos
  • Canavar

    Tyroneeze,

    BARÇIN YİNANÇ a Hurriyet columnist has some comments on Turkey’s newest obsession,France. I which I you thought might find entertaining. It’s a nice example of the “unique” way Turks view the world. I checked CNN and my wife checked the NY Times daily. The momentous Turkey-France affair was NEVER reported in the US media. I guess we Americans are very ignorant and narrow minded.

    Barcin Hanim says in her column entitled: “TURKEY PREFERS FISTFIGHT TO LEGAL BATTLE WITH FRANCE”:

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-prefers-fistfight-to-legal-battle-with-france.aspx?pageID=449&nID=12111&NewsCatID=412.

    1. “I cannot recall any other example in the recent past of Turkish foreign relations in which relations with a certain country are connected to such a degree to just one person… it has become apparent that as long as Nicolas Sarkozy remains French President, it will be difficult to put Turkish-French relations back on track.”

    Great sympathy. Erdogan is a wronged innocent.

    2. ” Ankara believes Turkey has become an expandable country in the eyes of Sarkozy.” As a response to this humiliation Barcin continues “ ‘We are not going to let France bully Turkey like that,’” a high level foreign ministry official told me. His rhetoric reminded me of the atmosphere that followed the flotilla crisis with Israel.”

    Good work official, if you talk tough France will fold, just like “trembling” (a Davetoglu invention) Israel.

    3. “An electoral victory for Sarkozy will strengthen the hands of those in Turkey that favor a drastic review of relations with the EU”.

    I am sure that the EU is very depressed about this possible “loss” of Turkey.

    4. “Ankara prefers to present the case with France as an act of hostility, preferring fistfights to legal battles.”

    Nothing less from the descendants of Alp Arslan

    Barcin,
    concerning these threats the American expression “you are whistling Dixie” is on target. I doubt that even a single ,Frenchman has missed even a single glass of Beaujolais. So sorry.

    • Tyroneez

      @canavar
      The failure to enforce the (treaty of sevre 1919) after turkeys defeat in WWI …and it’s replacement with the (treaty of Lausanne 1922) is at the route of all our present day troubles …
      The Turkish nationalists of mustapha kemal … With the direct backing of firstly the soviets , the Italians and finally the French …managed to obtain the revisionist treaty of Lausanne …
      Thus the Turkish mindset regarding , occupations , ethnic cleansing and genocides , as perfectly legitimate war aims , has never changed ….
      In fact the discarding of (the treaty of sevre) had disastrous implications for the whole world … As it served to encourage Hitler and Revisionist elements in Germany to challenge (the treaty of Versailles) itself …
      It took a catastrophic second world war and the destruction of the whole continent of Europe … Plus the deaths of 100 million innocent people … To Finally convince Germany to overhaul it’s mentality and finally change itself into a modern democratic entity …
      Fully accepting the mistakes of its militaristic past ….
      Likewise the same change of mindset was enforced on fascist Italy and imperial japan ….
      This never happened in turkey … Which continues to deny the facts , and views itself as the victor in WWI ….
      All because the allies demurred from enforcing the reforms of (the treaty of sevre)
      I.E.
      an Armenian state in the east …
      An autonomous Kurdistan … Leading to independence ….
      And protection for the Greek majority areas of western Anatolia … Under a Greek mandate …
      International control of the straits
      And eastern Thrace with it’s majority Greek population ceded to Greece
      Little Greece was left with no choice but to attempt to enforce the treaty by itself …. In view of the vulnerable 2 million indigenous Greek orthodox of Anatolia …having been treated genocidally during the 4 year great war …
      The Greek army bravely fighting on behalf of the legal Ottoman government and the allies … took the fight as far as ankara … Fighting the longest battle in military history (the battle of the sakarayia river …. 6 weeks) far from home and with dwindling supplies …. And without the financial backing …
      Given to the rebels by the soviets , Italians and French …
      With the allies abandoning Greece to catastrophic defeat in 1922 …and the burning of Anatolia’s biggest city Smyrna …and Thus condoning the victory of the extremists Turkish nationalists against the moderate and legitimate ottoman government …

      We now have the situation …. Were instead of the Turks being confined to the Turkish majority areas of central Anatolia …
      They were allowed to seize control of the Greek , Armenian and Kurdish majority areas ….
      No wonder they feel that they won WWI …
      And now with their unreformed mentality …. Are looking to recreate the ottoman empire …. But this time cleansed of it’s indigenous peoples and only populated by Turks …?? Starting with Cyprus and ending with Israel and the Balkans
      SOUND FAMILIAR ???
      It’s astounding to the Greeks both then and now … How the west with it’s supposed elevate standards …. Could have and still does tolerate a genocidal , racist , and imperialist …. Nation to upset the whole stability of this vitally important region ..
      Purely for the mistaken belief that the Turks are the only ones who can keep the Russians out …
      So now the greeks are expected to sit back and not only accept the loss of Cyprus and it’s EEZ … But also half the Aegean and it’s islands and EEZ …
      Well I don’t think so …if the turkish government thinks there is unfinished business … Then maybe there is …
      Bring it on … And we will see who has more to lose …
      Certainly not Cyprus or Greece …
      If the Turks want to risk their I’ll gotten gains … Then let them …
      If they cannot be satisfied with
      the biggest and most beautiful land mass in Europe
      The biggest population
      And The soon to be largest economy ..
      Then they have definitely got a distorted view of the world