Syria Shoots Down Turkish Warplane

June 25, 2012 | Filed under: Featured News,Geopolitics

Syria confirmed that it has shot down a Turkish warplane that vanished off the radar on Friday while flying over the Mediterranean Sea south-west of Hatay near Syria.

“Our air defences confronted a target that penetrated our air space over our territorial waters pre-afternoon on Friday and shot it down. It turned out to be a Turkish military plane,” a statement by the Syrian military said late last night.

The plane was coming from the west at a very low altitude and at high speed over territorial waters, so the Syrian anti-air defenses counteracted with anti-aircraft artillery, hitting it directly as it was 1 kilometer away from land, causing it to crash into Syrian territorial waters west of Om al-Tuyour village in Lattakia province, 10 kilometers from the beach, said a Syrian government spokesman.

Some parts of the jet have been found, said Turkish news agency AA. Ankara said that the jet entered Syria’s airspace by accident, and there are reports that the plane was photographing ‘Demetra‘, an ongoing military exercise in Cyprus waters. More precisely, according to the Cypriotic newspaper “Alitheia” a pair of RF-4 type aircraft of the Turkish Air Force around 11 – 11.30 in the morning of that day illegally flew over Cyprus. It was the time that units of the Cypriot National Guard participating in the annual major exercise ‘’Demetra’ left their camps and headed to dispersal areas. At that time the Turkish military entered the airspace of Cyprus and moved in such a way that the NG was confident that they intended to photograph the movements of its units. In this way they could get valuable information about possible moves or changes in plans since they could compare the movements made during this year’s exercise with those of previous years. Earlier another Turkish aircraft type CN 235, which is equipped with jamming and electronic surveillance systems, was also identified in the Cypriot airspace. At that time the officers of the General Staff gave strict orders for radio silence and activated protective anti jamming systems. Those who were in the field of the exercise little noticed, but those who were in the front of the radars at the headquarters and the Ministry of Defence realized that Turkey, particularly during this year, was persistent implementing its provocations previously announced. After noon, the pair of the Turkish RF-4s left Cyprus heading east, off Cape of Apostolos Andreas, towards the Syrian FIR.

Syria said that the plane was dealt with according to laws observed in such cases and that the two countries’ naval forces’ commands have established contact to search for the two missing pilots.

Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who had held a two-hour long emergency meeting last night about the incident with his intelligence and military chiefs, threatened “decisive” retaliation.

“In the light of the information gathered and the findings of the joint search and rescue efforts with Syria, it is understood that our plane was downed by Syria,” his office said in a statement released around midnight.”

Mr Erdogan did not reveal what his country’s exact response will be.

“Turkey will determinedly take all necessary steps and will take its final position after the full examination of the incident,” the statement said.

The fate of the two pilots on the aircraft is not certain, as reports that they were rescued were conflicted by the statement that said “search and rescue efforts, assisted by Syrian vessels to locate the plane’s two missing pilots are continuing.”
Erdogan said the plane, which vanished off radar at 11:58 a.m Friday, went down in the Mediterranean Sea about 8 miles (13 kilometres) away from the Syrian town of Latakia. Latakia Port is 71 km away from Tartus Port, where Russia has a naval base.

According to a report on Sigma TV, the plane entered Cyprus airspace, was tracked by Israel and once it entered Syrian airspace, was shot down by a Russian S300 missile.

The report has not been verified by military sources in Russia or Syria, which buys its air defense systems from its ally Russia. The US has strongly criticised Russia’s policy of arming Syria government forces but Moscow’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he would not apologise or justify sending arms to Syria. The air defense systems can only be used to repel foreign aggression, not on protesters in Syria, said Lavrov.

The UN has called for both sides to handle the incident with restraint and through diplomatic channels, said a spokesman for the UN.

Sources:

cyprusnewsreport.com

infognomonpolitics.blogspot.gr

Related News:

  1. Israeli exercises in Cyprus: Turkish F-16s against Israeli aircraft
  2. Pressure on Cyprus over EU’s Ankara invite to Syria meeting
  3. Russia tells US no need for explanations on munitions ship
  • Asotos69

    Well done teach em they can’t get away with their games

    • O1acimasiz

      Teach what?
      First lets see what happens next ,then i will comment on this issue.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        Nothing will happen O1. What do you expect?

        • O1acimasiz

          You got your answer Dean?
          Nothing gonna happen huh?

      • Asotos69

        It’s a lesson they should learn , u
        can’t expect to fly into other nations air space and not get a reaction hence the word “teach”. In this instance they lost a plane and as far as I’m concerned they got what they deserved

  • Makos

    Turkey thought that it would combine two missions into one. First monitor the Greek exercise in Cyprus and then dropping by Syria nearby just to play tough.

    I came to this conclusion because of 2 reasons.

    1) As this article revealed the true mission of these specialized RF-4 was the reconnaissance operation in Cyprus

    2) The flight path these aircraft followed during their ‘innocent walk’ in Syria was NOT suitable for a reconnaissance mission. They flew there really low, really fast while recco operations almost in all cases need some height in order to have a better view of the area they want to observe (take pictures and video).

    So Turkey combined a recco mission in Cyprus with bullying in Syria, since these two areas of major concern are so close by. Turkey tried to make a show of force by sending its aircraft in a flight profile that simulates an attack operation (low flying in high speeds).

    But guess what? These were recco aircraft, unsuitable for this task, without any escort and Syrians (or the Russian crew operating their new toys) responded decisively.

    The scenario where Syrian forces did not know the nationality of these aircraft now it is obvious that is ridiculous. Their radars should have noticed those Turkish aircraft flying over Cyprus before entering the Syrian airspace. Syrians should also be aware of the Greek exercise, and they should have even tracked these aircraft in radar coming from Turkey.

    As it was lately revealed these TUAF aircraft apparently entered the Syrian airspace, exited it, and then even more provocatively returned, just to make sure that everyone understood that the violation of the Syrian national airspace was not a ‘mistake’ and that the right message is received by Syrians.

    But Syria was not joking. Having the support from Russia, Iran and China made the Turkish government look like a fool and shoot down this plane (too bad for the pilots that they now should be considered dead).

    Now, how will Turkey respond? Getting NATO involved and start a 3rd world war maybe? I guess not…

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      No, Turkey can’t invoke NATO clauses. Those are in case of an attack to a NATO member. Not if the member itself initiated the action.

      This is a clear case of a plane testing defenses and being shot down. And a clear message from Russia that Syria is equipped with sophisticated missiles.

      What is amazing here is that a Russian crew did it (because the weapon was new and Syrians have not mastered it yet). And of course Turkey knows it. But dare not raise an issue with Moscow.

      And the Americans are laughing because it’s only them and the Israelis that could pull out such stunts because of the technology they posses.

      So everybody is happy with the outcome because it re-establishes a hierarchy of sorts. There is no way that after the Egyptian results anyone wants another Islamist government to rise. Not Israel and not the US and not Russia either.

      • Makos

        Dean Turkey convened emergency NATO meeting!

        Take a look at this:
        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9352797/Syria-Turkey-to-convene-emergency-Nato-meeting.html

        However, I do not expect any direct NATO involvement after this meeting.

        Turkey will protest, the West will protest (the Italian and German FM’s expressed their support already) but this will probably be all.

        As long as Russia and China (especially Russia) show their decisive support to the Syrian regime nothing will probably happen.

        I only expect a long lasting civil war in Syria, a civil war similar to the one in Angola, where during the Cold War the west and USSR supported different sides, without any direct involvement however thus avoiding escalation. End result the devastation of the country, many lives lost. I hope my prediction be wrong.

        Turkey however cannot deal with this situation alone. For various reasons. First of all if it attacks Syria, what would be the objective? Retaliation, revenge, overthrowing Assad, the capture of Damascus, the creation of buffer zone? What?

        Even if the goal is determined, what will the benefit be? Will Turkish opinion accept the huge loss of lives of Turkish soldiers associated with such an operation? Will Erdogan sacrifice the advancement of the Turkish economy by wasting billions of dollars in such an endeavor and by scaring off international investors?

        Will the west support such an operation and to what extent? What will be the reaction from Russia? Is Russia bluffing? What will be the reaction from neighboring Iran that supports Assad? What will China do?

        The US, UK and France cannot pass a resolution in UN as they did with Syria. Russia and China object that. So how will the public opinion in these countries react in a unilateral action from their governments?

        There are various concerns and implications here. So my opinion is that Turkey will probably do what S.Korea did when one of its corvettes was sunk by a N.Korean sub. That is protest and do nothing. At least nothing compared to what it does so far. Provide indirect support to the Syrian opposition.

        • Makos

          Correction: The US, UK and France cannot pass a resolution in UN as they did with Syria. I actually meant…. Libya.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Mako:

            I got you.

            First, any NATO member could convine a meeting to present evidence or discuss a situation. But not to invoke the common defense article. In this case obviously the Turks were clearly probing Syrian defenses. The Israeli DEPKA site has a much better take on the whole thing:

            http://www.debka.com/article/22112/Newly-supplied-Russian-Pantsyr-1-anti-air-missile-used-to-down-Turkish-warplane

            Syria is not Libya on many different levels. And before attempting a regime change everybody needs to approve the replacement.

            If you think that the west will understake a campaign against Syria to install an islamist government; I just don’t think so.

            And Russia is sending own troops there. No, there is not going to be any action against Syria on an US election year. Not, without a very significant cause.

            And Syria is also under the French sphere of influence.

        • canavar

          “Turkey however cannot deal with this situation alone. For various reasons. First of all if it attacks Syria, what would be the objective? Retaliation, revenge, overthrowing Assad, the capture of Damascus, the creation of buffer zone? What?

          “Even if the goal is determined, what will the benefit be? Will Turkish opinion accept the huge loss of lives of Turkish soldiers associated with such an operation? Will Erdogan sacrifice the advancement of the Turkish economy by wasting billions of dollars in such an endeavor and by scaring off international investors?

          “Will the west support such an operation and to what extent? What will be the reaction from Russia? Is Russia bluffing? What will be the reaction from neighboring Iran? What will China do?”

          Very good questions Makos. But suppose you replace Syria in the second line above with Israel, and then make the other changes needed for consistency. Then one might wonder about the nature Erdogan’s ruminations last September.

          We may never know. But beyond doubt, except to those blinded by hatred or overweening national pride, they resembled those of a fool.

        • KASOMOULIS

          The questions of all are so valid. Putin was in Israel the other day (?), so something is cooking there. There are also unconfirmed reports that a Russian anti-torpedo ship may actually have fired the missile and not the Syrians.
          Time will tell… exciting times in the Eastern Med.

          • canavar

            It’s TOO exciting. The Middle East is a nest of hornets. Moreover the world’s biggest players have their fingers in the nest. It’s hard not to believe that sooner or later something will blow.
            Unfortunately we will be sucked in. It’s the last thing we need.

          • KASOMOULIS

            I believe there is something bigger cooking and we should not forget history repeats itself.
            Are we going to go after Russia? I do not believe so, the economics just do not support it and the times are just not right.
            Current reports say Christians and alevites are being killed in Syria by the Sunni fanatical opposition.
            What about Hilary’s message in support of Turkey (a red herring?) or common sense support of an ally that is preserved for a more important mission? The plane was in Syrian airspace, to Erdogan’s own admission.
            Syria’s current opposition is religious fanatics that may get the country deeper in crap, see what happened in Egypt and Libya!
            Israel is better off with the current guys in Syria than any new unknown bozos, just my opinion – I know Syria is currently aligned with Iran but it may be better than what could be coming for both Israel and the Syrian people.
            Was Putin in Israel to threaten Bibi or there is something more sinister going on here? I know Russia and Israel have been sharing defense technology.
            The west needs time to breathe and decide what is good for us and the future of all.
            Turkey’s defense has to get streamlined with its NATO allies – it cannot any longer go off by itself and throw its weight against its neighbors – the plane was in Syrian airspace. Turkey cannot be screwing up and expect NATO to react, she cannot have it both ways. It has to decide whether it wants to go on its own or stay with the allies.

            Finally Bibi should get serious and stop giving America a hard time; it is time to realize the American-Israeli bond is more important than the Bibi-Limbaugh fling

          • canavar

            Yes Syria’s situation is to put it mildly unpredictable. But the decision is out of our hands. Assad is a mass murderer and must be executed or killed. Certainly Syria will get a Sunni Islamist government and it might be so extreme that in the long run it might be viewed as even worse than Assad’s regime. But in the short run the priority is to hang Assad.

          • Makos

            Yes Assad is a dictator and his hands are fool of blood.

            But his regime had done something right. It protected all religious minorities in his country. To a lesser degree he had protected the national minorities, like the Kurds who felt less oppressed in Syria in comparison to their compatriots especially in Turkey and Iraq. Christians in Syria (mostly Orthodox Christians) represent a 10% of the population, while Alevites another 10%. Syria is a country with mixed population. The Assad regime had not allowed religious fanaticism take over.

            Now, the opposition is centered around the Arab Sunni majority that probably felt it deserved more power. This opposition sees all other minorities as enemies, so it attacks Christians and Alevites and their homes, stores, churches and mosques.

            I am not convinced that if the opposition prevails we will see some democratic rule in this country instead of another totalitarian regime (a sunny fanatic this time).

          • Emre

            Makos, for me this is the real problem of the so called WEST. As long as Saudis pump oil to West, the sheikh and sultans do as WEST like, there is no need of democracy in these countries. If they try to cut the oil lines, then there is needed to bring democracy to these countries. It is simply 2 faced, unworthy, shameful politics. This is why we have/had the Arab revolution but when the Arab princes/sultans who are in the command of the WEST killed the revolutionaries, noone wanted to know about these deaths. Example: Bahrain, Yemen, UAE (strategic US allies) This kind of strategy sickens me and sickens the people who live in these states…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Emre:

            You need to understand something very simple and basic. Greece has no interest in the politics of the Middle East. You are trying to explain to us the Arab and Turkish point of view and we are simply not interested. Our world is far different than yours. We can trade but do not construe this as beeing interested in what happens in your part of the world. And now with Israel as our new friend we will do exactly as Israel’s best interests dictate. Because we can’t sacrifice our friendship for middle Eastern nonsense.

          • Emre

            Who is talking about Greece in world affairs? :) I am talking about WEST!!!! And yes darling, WEST is interested in Middle Eastern affairs. If you don’t agree, sorry but you are an idiot and you don’t understand anything about what is going on in the world!

          • O1acimasiz

            Well said!

          • canavar

            My friend Kaso. I subscribe to Stratfor. They just gave an insightful analysis of Russia’s goals. Putin they said, views the collapse of the FSU as a catastrophe. Putin is obsessed with the goal of restoring the Soviet empire. For this he wants us preoccupied, so Russia will face no US interference. Nearly everything Russia does is aimed to neutralize the US. So they love the Iraq war, the encounter with Iran, the actions against Libya, the US’ great interest in Egyptian politics, Syria (they want to keep the pot boiling), and even Putin’s visit to Israel. So if Stratfor is right your statement that “something bigger is cooking” is on target.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Yeah Canavar:

            But as you know Stratfor and George Freedman are based in Austin which is the heart of the Oil & Gas industry in Texas.

            So, all they do all day long is spin out scenarios which could accomodate Texan O&G companies for pipelines, drilling etc.

            In other words a way of marketing and promoting Texan interests. No wonder that Freedman considers Russia a problem. Because Russia is looking at the same pie and central Asia territory Texan O&G is interested (but not as good) in selling to.

            So, I wouldn’t take Stratfor so seriously. They are just a mouthpiece for hire. There are much more serious think tanks than Stratfor. And I mean MUCH more.

          • canavar

            I didn’t know that about Stratfor. They say many policy big wigs subscribe and I believed them. Henceforth I will read their opinions with a lot more skepticism.

            Changing the subject, I think you mentioned that things are brewing in Syria involving Western and possibly American intervention.

            The later is close to impossible before the next election. The Republicans would pounce on it the way a pack of rats would descend on an overturned garbage truck (metaphore intended).

            Also I’m more than skeptical about the reality of the Syrian activity, since I read nothing about it on the Yahoo, BBC, and Jerusalem Post news web sites.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Yes I agree with you assessment on the US position, elections and all.

            Least likely to happen at this moment.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Just looking at the flight path of these 2 planes, it looks like the Turks were trying to provoke both the Syrians and the Israelis.

    Since the Cypriot airspace is now covered by the IAF, it’s almost certain that the planes were going back and forth for as many times as necessary to provoke some action.

    And it probably did. The Israelis being super smart with such matters probably gathered all information about the 2 planes and passed it on to the appropriate channels..and, oh look, the plane went down. And all information is now untraceable….oh, well. Maybe next time we will get it right or wait…maybe we did.

    Plus a nice reminder to the Turks that if they had completed their Israeli upgrades on their planes such would never had happened. I would say, this is the sort of message that could get one’s real attention.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    It looks like the plane had violated Syrian airspace 3 times in a row and was hit during its 3rd violation.

    Therefore the claims of lost navigation, or warnings that should have been issued are laughable. This was a deliberate provocation each time becoming more bolder than before.

    One should ask, why was the plane not hit during its first airspace violation or the 2nd? I think the Syrians gave all the rope needed for the pilot to hang himself.

    http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20120626/174255373.html

  • Emre

    It is normal to see these kind of comments here but you are totally talking bullshit Greek friends (actually no friends at all but whatever). If we shot down every Greek plane that enters to our airspace and if Greece had done the same to Turkish planes who enter to your airspace we wouldn’t have planes left.
    There is an international procedure when a plane enters to your airspace. As Erdogan says the Turkish plane entered to Syrian airspace, correct. And I personally think that the plane was hit in Syrian airspace. But the question here is how it is made. We had 5 Syrian chopper entries to Turkish airspace and we have applied the procedure and the situation was solved easily. If there was a warning to the Turkish plane from the Syrian side, they would have sent the data to press long before.
    So, the plane was shot deliberately. I think Turkey has to suck it up and move on as the plane (for me) was shot in Syrian airspace. Now, we will be watching closely and wait until Syria makes a small mistake…and no, there won’t be any procedure to follow. Shoot at 1st sight.

    • GCG

      Shoot at first sight my arse dear Emre. There wont be any shooting unless authorised by the “big boys” and Turkey isn’t one of them yet. That was a hard slap in the face from a regime that has nothing to lose. Desperation breeds defiance which in turn develops to resolution, a bad mix for any opponent especially a big mouthed one without the balls to match.

      • O1acimasiz

        You will see how big our balls are,little bigmouth!

        • GCG

          What better way to support my view than your reply : “You WILL see…” yes, at some point in the future but for the time being we just talk about it in our usual boastful way while running to daddy NATO for support. As for the personal comment, it doesn’t make sense, so I totally ignore it.

          • O1acimasiz

            At least we dont run to mama Merkel,evrytime we need something!
            To inform NATO in case we do something is the right thing,so go to mama Merkel and ask if you may comment first.

          • GCG

            Good sense of humor O1acimasiz, really no sarcasm, I laughed. Just one correction. We go to mama Merkel for one thing alone and it’s not what the average guy asks the average girl for. I ‘ll give you a clue. Has no smell, difficult to get-easy to waste and its in short supply currently in Greece. You on the other hand, go to daddy NATO asking for something you proclaim to have in big amounts, balls. So either you are stupid asking for something you already posses OR you are lying (about the size). Take your pick, I have.

          • Emre

            I hate to make comparisions but we need to have some basis to judge if the Turkey’s stance is ok or not in this situation.
            Turkey has no interest in going for all-out war with Syria. Therefore we have been working with UN and Nato to be able to form a group of action against Bassar.
            My comparison of this situation is the Aegean dispute. Greeks claim that Turkish fighters are passing to Greek airspace. So why don’t you shoot it down? It is not easy, right?
            The ultimatum is given. Syrian forces, if they pass to our airspace by mistake or deliberately will be shot down. If there will be any shelling of Turkish territory, Turkey will respond. This is casus belli. The same goes for Aeagean. If you increase your territory from 6 miles to 12 miles, it is a war cause.
            Well? When it happens to you, it is not that easy, correct? No? I didn’t hear you?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Emre:

            What are you talking about?

            First of all, all Syria has to do is unleash the Syrian Kurds upon you and they will do the rest.

            Second of all, whether the territorial waters are 6 miles or 12 miles, our EEZ includes both such distances and can extend up to 200 miles unless it meets another EEZ and then we use the median line.

            Under our EEZ you have the right of free passage but not exploitation of our waters and air. Your boats and airplanes could pass anytime but fishing and drilling is not allowed.

            So we don’t give a rat’s ass how many times you want to fly over, as long as you leave and don’t distrurb the tourists and island inhabitants with your barbaric Middle Eastern noises of people with a deep inferiority complex.

          • O1acimasiz

            Well now,wake up you greeks dont dream to much!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            In such case maybe you want to tell us which part of the Greek EEZ don’t you understand?

            http://www.seaaroundus.org/eez/300.aspx

          • Emre

            lol, I want to see what kind of EEZ it would be. And fishing and drilling is not allowed? lol..Well lets wait and see this…I won’t do any comments before I see this happen.

          • O1acimasiz

            What syrian kurds?
            Even the kurds hate Assad,they cant take his side.
            What if Assad losess?
            Poor kurds then dont you think?
            All shows that way doesnt it or do you think he can hold much longer?

          • GCG

            By all means make comparisons as long as its not between eggs and lemons, which is the case when one’s territory is being shelled by a neighboring country as opposed to a violation of airspace, a common occurrence according to your president and “due to the speed of these jets”. So don’t try to turn this around by placing Greece in Turkey’s position. If a Greek jet is shot down by a foreign country, I don’t know what the response will be and neither do you.
            The point I am making and which remains unanswered is the gap between rhetoric and action displayed by Turkey on an ever increasing scale. Being Turkish I am sure you are aware of that, even more so since you obviously browse on foreign media websites. As for the casus belli to Syria which you imply, be honest and see it for what it really is; yet another empty boast to appease public opinion in the knowledge that is will never happen. Don’t you think Assad has enough problems and enemies to risk a war with Turkey? So there won’t be any violations of Turkish airspace by Syrian jets, definitely no shelling‘ and I am sure as hell there won’t be any Turkish jets straying into Syrian airspace from now on. I believe we have consensus on this last point.

          • canavar

            “As for the casus belli to Syria which you imply, be honest and see it for what it really is; yet another empty boast to appease public opinion in the knowledge that is will never happen.”

            GCG, Yes this situation does bring a sense of deja vu! Unfortunately this proclivity of the Turks to make hot air threats, is not just entertainment.
            Turkey came close to the brink with Israel last Fall. The Turkey talk was of course just ego boosting noise. But I dread to think what would have happened if a hot head like Liberman was the Israeli PM.

          • Emre

            Well a racist Nazi-like Libermann definetely would take the world into chaos. He wouldn’t dare to turn already prison Gaza and Palestine into death camps. People like him prejudice the real cause of Israel…

          • O1acimasiz

            Maybe you like the word daddy so much your confused.
            We dont need a daddy you on the other hand need your mama so talk sence or shut the f..k up bigmouth.
            Or do you like our balls so much you wanna taste them?

          • GCG

            You pathetic little bastard, I knew from the beginning you would end up swearing.What a CUNT ..

          • O1acimasiz

            They must call you retard,as evryone can see by the posts You idiot started it,do you live in western europe?
            If you do then lets meet and see who the little bastard is.
            iF YOU ARE A MAN TELL ME THE CITY AND YOUR NAME,THEN WE SEE WHO IS THE LITTLE BIGMOUTH!

          • GCG

            Surprisingly it was “pathetic little bastard” that made you angry. Obviously you don’t know the meaning of the word CUNT. When you find out you will realize it fits you perfectly and then you might shut up. Additionally, if you read the thread, you and anyone else reading, will come to the conclusion that the first insult came from your end. More importantly, all your answers and especially your last one, vindicate my position 100% which I remind you goes as follows; that your government, you and many of your compatriots are just a bunch of bigmouths and that your actions always fall short of your words unless they are directed against women, children and forests. Now, to answer your idiotic questions, yes I do live in Western Europe, my name is Nikitaras o Tourkofagos and I suggest you take your casus belli and stuff it up your fat, hairy, dick ravaged Turkish arse YOU CUNT

          • O1acimasiz

            Here is the proof that you are a little chicken,i live in holland,city venlo ask anyone in this city my name Attakan Erdem and they will lead you to me.
            Be a man and tell these words in my face dipshit.

          • GCG

            bla, bla, bla

          • O1acimasiz

            HAHHAHAHAH YOU PILIC

          • Emre

            Acimasiz, bu serefsizlerin seviyesine inme lutfen. Kufurle cozulse keske isler…Hakliyken, haksiz duruma duseriz.

  • jojokas

    You talk like 10 years old children .
    2 people lost their lives on that plane that is important and many also over aegean sea in same situations.
    Now you feel the pain .But it is starnge how easy you forget..!!!

  • canavar

    Acimasiz, Do you remember that I said “Turkler pilic doganlari” and “Turkler, benden size bir buyuk orta parmagi”, vs.

    These were really stupid things to say. They defeat the purpose of this blog. I apologize.

    When I told you that there are many good things about Turkey, I meant what I said.

    Could we start again from scratch?

    • O1acimasiz

      Are you sure?

      • canavar

        Yes. I have a love/hate relation with Turkiey. I truly used to love the Turkish people and I’m sure I would still still love those who haven’t changed. I told you I’m corresponding with a young Turkish girl right now, about her coming to graduate school at my university. She is a lovely girl just, like the Turkish people I once knew–same Turkish hospitality. She told me if I came to Turkey, I would be be the guest of her aand her family. Under these circumstances, I would never get such an invitation in the US –it would be inconceivable.

        If I hated Turks why on earth would I help Seyma. I’m very busy.

        But there are some aspects of Turkish culture which I have great distaste for. I loath Erdogan. I used the words pilic dogani again here but I meant it only for Erdogan. He threatens loudly but with Israel and France he did nothing and I think it will be the same with Syria. It would be better for Turkey, if he says only what Turkey will actually do.

        But I delete this nasty expression (pilic dogani) for the Turks. I know very well that the Turkish army is very formidable and most Turkish soldiers are very brave. But this is also true for the IDF and the Israeli soldiers. It is very bad to underestimate your opponents. Overconfidence can lead to defeat.

        Anyway I sincerely offer my hand in friendship to all Turks posting on this site. I hope that they will accept it.

        Arkadaslarim, Iyi Yazlar!

  • canavar

    This is from today’s Debkafile. It’s a nice chuckle.

    “Another urgent bid for the US to lead an allied offensive against Syria’s ruling regime fell on deaf ears in Washington. It came Tuesday, June 26, from Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, who is spoiling for action after a Syrian anti-air ambush downed a Turkish reconnaissance jet flying over Latakia last Friday.

    “In several phone calls to President Barack Obama, Erdogan argued forcefully that the incident provided the perfect opening for a Western-Muslim-Arab offensive, according to debkafile’s military and intelligence sources. This offensive, said the Turkish leader, could drive into Syria, create no-fly zones, attack regime and military targets and establish safe zones for rebels and refugees. The Turkish army, air force and navy stood ready for immediate action, he said, but the US must take the military lead in this operation – and not just “from behind,” as in Libya.

    “Obama replied the time had not yet come for direct US military intervention in Syria…”.

    Sorry Tayyip Bey. We are NOT going in!

    Not to mention that the story suggests that Turkey is indeed a “pilic dogani”–a dogan (hawk) if America does the fighting and a pilic (chicken) otherwise.

    Probably he’ll issue baleful threats (zorba gibi) and then to do nothing (pilic gibi), as during the Mavi Marmora affair . Yes a “pilic zorbasi” –a chicken bully–that’s Erdogan in a nut shell.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      “Western-Muslim-Arab” offensive?

      Oh, boy this guy has a problem. And isn’t this a contradiction of terms ? The west and Muslims/Arabs on the same camp? Why?

      And not just “from behind”? What is this? What sort of use of words is this?

      BTW, Debka files always does nice work.

    • O1acimasiz
      • Makos

        These guys protesting are mainly Greeks from Cyprus.

        And they are protecting for this reason:

        http://cyprusembassy.net/home/index.php?module=article&id=4316

        It is well known that this political party was behind these killings.

        I would suggest that extremists should be condemned in both our countries. As I condemn the right wing party Golden Dawn in Greece you should also condemn Grey Wolves/MHP. I believe this is the right thing to do as these guys can only give us trouble and nothing more!

        By the way is it true that as a Turkish judge named Emin Değer said, this organization is linked to paramilitary organizations in Turkey and to US secret services which are responsible for the funding? I recently read something concerning the US operation Gladio and its Turkish branch called Seferberlik Taktik Kurulu .

        • O1acimasiz

          MHP is not like Golden Dawn.
          Yes they are nationalist but not nazis,even kurds are members of that party.
          Now tell me what does that tell you?
          Its a muslim right wing party.
          You can compare it to the republikans(christian right wing) in the US.

          • Makos

            Nationalism is a bad thing.

            Call it Greek nationalism, Turkish nationalism, German nationalism (Nazism), Italian nationalism (Fascism) it is a bad thing.

            The same goes for religious fanaticism (from crusaders to talibans).

            I do not understand your point. The whole civilized world condemns nationalism and religious fanaticism as these ideas are responsible for the major massacres in human history.

            So are you actually supporting nationalism, extreme right parties or any religious extremists?

          • O1acimasiz

            did i write something like that?
            I only explained the MHP.
            none of the above,i just dont take crap if it comes to my country or people.

          • GCG

            Watch it, I know where you live now..

          • O1acimasiz

            Soooo shaking!

          • canavar

            The Republican party used to be a center right party with many moderate members. But now it is a extreme right party dominated by Tea Party ideology. One of the last moderate Republicans Olympia (she is of Spartan ancestry) Snowe will not run again for the Senate. She is completely fed up with the grid lock (all fights no accomplishment) in Congress arising from the fact that the newly ultra right Republican party tries to block every bill that the Democrats propose.

            The Tea Party is a white folks club but it certainly is nothing like Nazism. It consists of people who in effect work get the rich richer and everyone else poorer. The Tea Party members are fanatic budget cutters who crave obliterating education, health, etc programs while maintaining huge tax breaks for multimillionaires.

            The Tea Party is also “socially conservative”, meaning, anti-gay, anti-abortion, and often anti-evolution. In other words the Tea Party people wants to shove its own bigoted views down the country’s throat.

            To me the new Republican Party is an abomination. But it is nothing remotely resembling the Nazi party.

      • canavar

        Even my words here were bad. I meant Erdogan not Turkey. Again I apologize.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    I am not going to engage into mud throwing with the Turkish contingency here. However given the type of commentary we are receiving from the Turkish side I want you to reflect on the following:

    You(The Turkish side) provide strong evidence of why a Greco-Turkish cooperation of any kind is doomed to fail. Your positions add very little or mostly negative value and they tend to deteriorate into policing and harassment positions as if someone has elected you to such a job in European affairs.

    It is precisely this attitude that reinforces in us that you are – without a shred of a doubt – in a different and alien world than ours. And as such you are entitled to live in a different reality but you have no right to invite us in your falsehood nor do we have the time to continuously educate you on various matters.

    Partnerships are built on the notion that the value created is larger than the sum of the two parts. But in your case the chemistry created is far below the sum of the two parts. Which is another way of saying that there is very little in common here worth pursuing.

    And if you think that you represent any sort of “fear factor” for us, rest assured that you don’t. In fact the exact opposite applies.

    • Emre

      I agree with you in one thing which is that Greco – Turkish alliance is somehow impossible under these terms.
      I come here just to understand the threats which Greeks constitute to Turkey and to understand a little bit your way of thinking.
      I consider myself to be mild-nationalist. So about 70-80% of the Turks don’t want to even discuss the red lines.
      I wanted to know how is this percentage in Greece and I see that it is the same or more. So it is really impossible to find a common solution. Hatred towards Turkish policies can be seen easily here. It is like a marriage, if you think that to marriage to work only husband has to change and the fault is only husband’s, you can never reach to a common solution and no you won’t have a good marriage. So when this comment comes from someone that puts the guilt of the current economical crises in Greece totally to third parties and then even link this to Turkey, then no Dean, there is no way that we are going to have an alliance of any kind…Turkey might not be perfect in its policies but it takes 2 to make it worse…

      • kasomoulis

        Emre, I break my protocol again to respond to your rant.
        Please do not call me a snake or a woman – from your previous posting I know you do not think much of women (appologies if you just said it to make conversation and do not believe it – you called canavar a woman)
        YOU SAY…
        “I come here just to understand the threats which Greeks constitute to Turkey and to understand a little bit your way of thinking.” But you have said previously Greece does not present a threat for Turkey 9was it also just talk?)

        If true, do you see the interference into Greek airspace by the Turkish air force…. Overflying the islands and scare the citizens?
        If true, do you see the Cyprus debacle – and your announcing “even if one Turk was there we would have intervened”– you not being able to see the international law made by the UN resolutions (Occupation force and 200K Turkish settlers on the island). 18% of the land owners possessing 40% of the island. From your postings here one can see that you do not even blink that this may, just may, be a bit going too far for Turkey. I believe just about 94% of the Greeks agreed then and agree now the action of the Greek 67 Junta was wrong. So, unless the situation goes back to what it was in pre 74 or an arrangement that satisfies the Greek and Turkish citizens of Cyprus (not Turkey! Not Greece!), this is not going to contribute positively to the Turkish-Greek relations – am I wrong that you do not show that you understand this from your postings?
        The Greek red lines you are talking about have been solid and unmoving since the original treaties signatures. The Turkish red lines keep changing moving westwards. Even after the Greeks try to assure not just Turkey but the international community at large that the sea faring lanes will remain open and the 6milles do not have to become 12 but somewhere in between. You obviously cannot see that. Turkey declared the ICJ not the correct forum to resolve this!
        You do not seem to agree (your right) that this new century of globalization will force us to talk to each other. You claiming the “European slavery”. Well…. In this sense we are all “slaves” to our own existence because we have needs that keep us on the hook for more – human nature I suppose. So your comparison between the EU and the Ottoman empire just shows you are either an ignoramus or a planted seed here to not get info, as you claim but to declare and yes impose the Turkish views.. right or wrong. Thus honoring your involvement here is downright a joke because you are so transparent.
        Discussing movable red lines is a Turkish characteristic – there is a saying “Turkish business is like Green olives!…. premature”. I put it here just for a laugh! So you expect to have Greece discuss the partition of Cyprus (Turkish red line) – you expect Greece to discuss the new Turkish red line counter to the international law of the seas. There is a protocol for that; go to the ICJ, Turkey does not want that.
        Greece proposed a non-aggression treaty between our two countries and Turkey votes in the casus belie.
        You said in one of your postings “Greece does not present a threat to Turkey”. Why the army of the Aegean, why the casus belie, why the plane overflying without notification putting both the Greek and Turkish flyers lives in jeopardy and the Greek islands’ citizens under duress.
        It is so naïve and lucrative, to say the least, that one should compare the marriage of two people that is temporary on this earth, the conflicts of which are being handled differently in each part of the world according to the local religion and laws, with the relationship of two countries whose territories have been here for millennia and will continue to exist unless mighty nature (or god if you will) decides it had enough with our stupidity. From this comment one can see you are judging the world only from the Turkish point of view. Just like, you cannot digest the fact that EU is a judicial entity with powers that parallel the UN or the ICJ.
        Finally you suggesting that the Greeks blame third parties for their plight. You may have a half point there that the majority of the people, because of losing their job or not being able to afford health care are following political opportunists that declare they will fix all ills without the bail out. Please wait till the dust settles to make this judgment. However, you must admit that Turkey has been spending plenty on its offensive weapons for the last twenty years and along the actions we talked about above it almost becomes a no brainer that Greece has to spend on its defense to counter Turkey’s signals. In that respect yes Turkey is a third party in the cause/effect equation. Also the belligerence in the EEZ issue on the Part of Turkey both in Cyprus and Greece for so many years has actually delayed the exploitation of the available resources to cover the bail out expenses and more. On the other hand Turkey is enjoying this exploitation in the black sea and with the pipelines that the EU has invested to pass through Turkey making her an energy hub.

        • Emre

          Kaso, all this paragraph to say what? Please write concise and don’t waste to much time of readers. Get directly to the point and straight.
          As for your accusations I don’t think that I called canavar a woman if I did, it should have been a typo. He deserved words more than “snake” because he has written unspeakable things in Turkish. It is too bad that your eyes see only one side of the story. (classical in this site, so I am used to it). Greece proved in history that when Turkey was weak, it took advantage of it and burnt our beautiful country into ashes when you ran away from Anatolia. Greece supported PKK militants and hid Ocalan and gave him Greek passport and guaranteed free passage. Ofcourse Greece, when given the chance, is a threat and have proved it in the history.
          As for Cyprus and 12 mile issue and EEZ issues, I have written my comments long before, if you want check out my older posting and ideas about it, read these comments because we are all looking to be like parrots speaking of the same bs.
          Greece makes part of EU and an attack or invasion of anypart of Greece would be suicidal from Turkey’s part and noway it will happen so you blaming Turkey for your spendings in weapons is totally foolish. Trick yourself bnut don’t think that others are buying it. Blame your politicians who invested heavily in German, US weapon systems saying that Turkey will invade this and that and these enjoyed selling weapons to mighty Greece. And now that your economy is soaring, it is the fault of Turkey…Get real!

          • canavar

            I apologized twice and said some sincere nice things about Turkey.
            Apparently you would accepted an apology from Israel for far worse offenses. If you don’t accept my apology, I will retract it.

          • Emre

            canavar, I already accepted it however, Greeks only see one side of the story. They never “saw” what you had told but when we call someone snake, they only remember that…That was why I, unwantedly, recalled your name :) Sorry.

          • kasomoulis

            Em….
            I have to reiterate the issues because every time you answer the questions with hyperbolic Turkish ranting without the presentation of any actual argument on the issues. So typical!
            You are also particular on what article to participate, thus avoiding the obvious ones that put Turkey on the defensive.
            As for Greece you were so hopeful she will be “kicked out of Europe”. You and others have not gotten it. Europe is here to stay. Any changes will be done to improve the EU cohesion, just watch eventually the public sector and the deficit of each country will be regulated and the EROBOND will be in effect.
            The EU would love to have Turkey among them but it comes with the price that Turkey would have to firstly adhere to the European principles… no Ottoman dreams …. which you seemingly, from your postings, call it “Merkel’s dictatorship” and laugh at the Greeks. What you do not seem to be able to do is project the line into the future. Time will tell my friend, the Greeks will stick with Europe… you can go back to the Ottoman dreams.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Actually Kaso, we already got our eurobond in Greece. When in effect our borrowing rate is at 2% for the sovereign debt issues, an actual eurobond would probably can’t do any better than such rate. It’s Spain at 7% and Italy at 6%+ that now want a eurobond. We are way past such debate and we are just watching now.

            So Greece is already a beneficiary of European cohesion and will continue to do so.

          • kasomoulis

            Dean, I know and it is, it seems, getting better with some light at the end of the tunnel. Yesterday’s understanding at the EU mit I believe opened the way to resolving the market tantrum…. at least for a while.

          • Emre

            Ufff Kaso, the only ones who would decide if Greece to stay in EU or not are Greek people. It is the same for Turkish people. We had like 75% support in joining Eu, now this % is like 20%. Ofcourse entry is harder than to leave it. Greece leaving EU would be a total disaster to Greece.
            Greece should stick with whoever it wants meanwhile we, for the 1st time in almost 90 years know the way to go. Dream or not, we need an objective and the objective is already set…
            I truly do not wish any bad to Greek people. I wish our countries were more friendly to each other so that we would be living peacefully… I am aware of Turkey’s behaviour is wrong in some occasions and Greeks and our neighbours don’t like the Ottoman Dream but you shouldn’t think that Turkey will try to invade the Ottoman era lands… Becoming the rising star of Middle East from the Ill-man of Europe..

          • canavar

            Kasomoulis, why don’t women post her? Do Turkey, Cyprus, or Greece have female soldiers (like the beautiful Israeli soldiers on Youtube).
            Incidentally I’m very big on physical fitness (I run long distances) and look nothing like a women.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            There are actually female pilots. See here on 8:20

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foE2iYDqTSU

          • canavar

            Yes I saw one Dean –a real beauty. But she is standing in front of a prop plane.

            The Israeli air force(IAF), in contrast, has women combat pilots who fly the same fighter jets and on the same missions as the men. I saw one of them, a girl of Ethiopian Jewish descent.

            The IAF is awesome. It is ranked 4 in the world,
            behind population giants US, Russia, China, and ahead of Pakistan, which has the the smallest population of 1-3 and 5, “only” ~ 130 million. There are only 6 million Jews in Israel. Qualitatively Israel is number 2 and its pilots are said to be the best in the world. So no matter how big your army is, if it’s an air war don’t underestimate Israel.

            Incidentally, if you would like to see a lot of beautiful women , Google “Youtube Israeli women soldiers”. They are just typical young Israeli girls–not supermodels– so they are doubly awesome. If American women soldiers were comparable, our Army would have so many volunteers that they wouldn’t know what to do with them.

            How do they get so beautiful. Well Israelis eat a very healthy mix of foods, they have a Southern California climate and like the Californians love sports, especially water sports. Also more and more Jews from all parts of the world are mixing producing people with hybrid vigor. You can see girls with Middle East and North African hair and coloring but striking deep blue eyes. It’s a very beauty enhancing combination.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            My understand is that both the IAF and HAF train together in Israel now. So, if there are any Greek female pilots of valor you will probably find them in Israel most of the time.

            And yes, I agree. Queen of Sheba type beauties are breathtaking.

          • canavar

            Also just like the ancient Greeks, the ancient Hebrews have an indispensable contribution to Western civilization. Imagine a world without Abraham monotheism and the evolutionary ancestor of our present conception of God, without Moses and the Exodus and the Ten Commandments. The Exodus has inspired countless people over 3,200 years, and the Ten ommandments are still the foundation of Western morality.
            The whole Bible has had an impact incomparably unlike any other book in history. When you take away the miracles, most stories of the bible are not only mainly based in fact, but they deal with the subjects that are the most emotionally charged and meaningful to human beings. Finally one has the incomparable influence of Jesus.
            Yes you have to hand it to those Jews both then and to this day.
            I wonder why they are so hated. Could part of it be jealousy.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Without a doubt. The Jewish tradition is very rich and very deep. And the values are the same or very similar.

          • kasomoulis

            I know Greece has women in the military though there has been a while since the Greeks had active duty other than the pilots, and Afghanistan, and the latest Balkan peace keeping forces, though I am not sure if women participate there.
            It is unfortunate that women do not post here, it would probably help keep our behavior civil. I have visited other posting sites activity where it runs about 50/50 on w/m postings. I believe we may have had a couple of women’s wrote here once or twice.
            canavar, no doubt you are a fit guy and my reference here was only for the fact that the postings here reflect the sociopolitical standing of different nationalities.
            By the way I walk at least one hour a day, I used to jog; I am probably much older than you too. My kids run marathons.

          • canavar

            Yes it would probably keep our conversations more civil. Women have passions about different thing. And I believe on the whole they are more humanistic and less ego driven than us.
            We would moderate our responses due to their
            very critical posts and because we don’t want to look like fools, especially since many of them are likely to be very pretty.
            Yes we need women, especially young and pretty ones.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            True.

            BTW, all women are young and pretty at heart.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        Emre:

        O.k.I hear you. But in all truth we never asked getting closer to Turkey.

        It’s you (your side) that has this notion that we are sisters of the Ottoman Empire and such. And then you assume that such is a basis for further discussion.

        It’s your side, if I am not mistaken, which claims familiarity with us and you are almost certain that you know us and that it indeed we have a hidden love for Turkey.

        All we want is to be left alone and not have our disposition be assumed. I am sure there area some wonderful people in Turkey, hospitable, friendly and down to earth.

        The one that lets you down is your government which is bellicose, pompous, irritating and to a large extent ignorant.

        I personally have nothing against you or individual Turks who might turn out to be some of the nicest people. But your official apparatus is – to put it mildly – rotten and deserves the biggest of scorn and indifference.

        • Emre

          I don’t know how you reach to these conclusions Dean. We also never asked getting closer to Greece as well. We don’t want any backstabbing sisters. Familiarity with Greeks? Just Greeks stealing yogurt, raki, beyaz peynir etc etc. As for the ancient Greek culture. It WAS a huge one and it added a lot to humanity but you have to get over it and understand that it has gone and the modern Greece unfortunately couldn’t learn anything from it.
          Turkey lets you alone as long as you don’t kill our citizens or support terrorists which attack to our forces etc.
          Our government, as I said before, is not supported in national issues but in international ones I think no other government was supported this much. So the wonderful people of Turkey you are talking about is about 5% of the population regarding to the issues we are talking here. If the other 95% ever visited sites like this and to be informed of ideas which is passing by our Greek neighbours’ minds, they would go crazy :)
          As for the last of all, I will be continuing reading the posts to understand a little bit of your way of thinking (even if I agree or not). Because I think it is better to communicate than to not to, even if the both sides agree or not…There might be found a common ground if we continue to have open dialogue with respect…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            But what is the point of dialogue if we so profoundly disagree?

            To further punctuate disagreement?

            I don’t get it.

          • Emre

            So what you propose is that 3rd parties solve our problem and we don’t talk to each other?
            Better have direct WAR! lol

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Who said anything about war? Turkey is no position to even dream conflict with member states of the EU. You will be reduced to ashes.

          • O1acimasiz

            One of your hollywood dreams again?

          • GCG

            I just want to isolate one of your arguments, definitely not the most important one – I truly hope – but one that indicates the abyss that divides us as people which will take superhuman efforts to bridge. Do you honestly bear a grudge against us for “backstabbing” you by stealing yoghurt, raki and beyaz penir??? If this is an important issue to you, anyway important enough to mention it, then we have practically no chance of settling the big disputes. For the record, I have no strong opinions on the origins of raki and beyaz penir.

          • Emre

            You misunderstood me or trying to twist my words. Backstabbing took place in WW1 when you entered to Anatolia and tried to capture Ankara (A GREEK CITY!!!) and then burnt the whole anatolia down when you fled!
            I refered to what Dean called, Turkish familiarity with Greeks!

          • GCG

            Read again, you are correct, “backstabbing” refered to WW1. But no mistake further down, your full comment…”Just Greeks stealing yogurt, raki, beyaz peynir etc etc. ” Stealing? Where did you get that from? Will not repeat the rest of my argument, just the question. DO YOU bear a grudge against us even on that level?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Emre:

            My understanding is that Greek forces took over some territory in Asia Minor held by Italian and French forces following WWI. At some later time they engaged in some ill-advised adventurism which lead to their defeat by Kemal’s forces. As such no one has invaded your country because you didn’t have one. What you had was an empire in decay which was dismembered by the Allied victorious forces with different parts given to different people.

            That the Turkish Aegean shores are Greek ancestral lands, neither you or I could alter such facts. This is part of well documented history pre-dating the Turkish appearance in these parts of the world.

            The fact that the Osmanlis made their first appearance 3000 years later than the Greeks into the same territory being quite ignorant of its previous history, is not really our problem.

            Ignorance and unsophistication are always the problem of those who bear such traits.

            As I explained to you before, Ancient Greece had 2 spheres of influence. One Spartan and one Athenian. The Athenian territories included the coast Aegean areas of today’s Turkey:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ArchaicGr.jpg

            you can also see the same influence here:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_athenian_empire_431_BC-en.svg

          • Emre

            If Greek forces stayed around Izmir and not forced into Anatolia and to Ankara, today the geography could have been different. Greeks moving to Ankara and try to capture it to end the Turkish resistance and probably exterminate our existance in Anatolia sparked resistance more. Also, when the Greek army was defeated and fled from Anatolia, the burning of the Turkish/Greek settlements also won’t be forgotten. This is what we call backstabbing. You can critisize Ottomans for anything but they never tried to exterminate or backstab Greek population when they captured Greece territory. Only reason that Greece stayed with Ottomans for 500 years is because in that time the tollerance showed to foreigners by Ottomans was somehow better than other empires of the time. We Turks feel the grudge against this Greek adventure you are talking about because until the decay of Ottoman empire, we treated you well…(am I mistaken?)

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Actually you are mistaken. Greeks under the Ottoman Empire were treated as second class citizens.

            That’s why they decided to revolt.

            In the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Muslim dhimmi system, Greeks, as Christians, were guaranteed limited freedoms (such as the right to worship), but were treated as second-class citizens. Christians and Jews were not considered equals to Muslims: testimony against Muslims by Christians and Jews was inadmissible in courts of law. They were forbidden to carry weapons or ride atop horses, their houses could not overlook those of Muslims, and their religious practices would have to defer to those of Muslims, in addition to various other legal limitations.[1] Violation of these statutes could result in punishments ranging from the levying of fines to execution.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greeks

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Emre:

            I hate to break the news to you, but we are direct descendants of the ancient Greeks and with an unbroken record to match:

            http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/fallmerayer/

          • canavar

            Absolutely true in Greece and perhaps some other places. However outside these areas there was extensive Hellenization.

            Incidentally, one of Hitler’s crackpot theories is that the ancient Greeks were “Nordic”,but the present Greeks have little of their “blood” because of “mongrelization” due to mixing with “inferior races”. What a pile of crap. If the modern Greeks aren’t the descendants of Pericles and Socrates then who are they? Were the ancient Romans also mongrelized baring no relation to the modern Italians? Total absurdity.

            If Hitler hadn’t done his evil things, then today he would be remembered as a fool.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            True, about Hitler. Utter nonsense. He basically liked the Spartan model but we have zero connection to the Germans, their Arianism and their Hunnic origin which makes them cousins of the Turks.

            The Hellenization part deals with the culture. As long as you accepted the Greek way of life you were considered a Greek.

            So, that you know Canavar. I don’t subscribe to racist nonsense.

            However the Turks have this weird idea that the Greeks are a mongrel nation because that is precisely what they(Turks) are.

            So, we are trying to prove to these poor fellows that it ain’t so.

            As far as blood and racial purity, I don’t care about it but in this case the Greeks are survivors the same way Jewish people are.

            The only difference is that the Jewish people had to wonder to far away foreign lands because of forced circumstances but the Greeks pretty much stayed in the same historical place(plus their various colonies in the Med).

            So the Jewish people are the well-traveled survivors and we Greeks are the “barely have moved anywhere” survivors.

          • Makos

            Dean, I completely agree with you. After all the ‘blood’ thing is a study for biologists, for those scientists who research about dogs and beetles and their races (I actually think they use the same method on humans as well).

            So, why bother we such things, unless we humans consider ourselves dogs?

            However, behind all these stories about the race purity thing there is almost always a sneaky political motivation hidden that we must expose.

          • Emre

            Dean you continue to twist my words or seem to understand only half of what I am saying. Or read my posts fully or continue to be an ignorant as you are…
            I haven’t said anything about DNA’s or if you are from the ancient Greece or not. What I say that, compared to ancient Greek culture, today’s Greece has nothing to do with it. You can have the DNA but you don’t have the advance which ancient Greece had at the time. So having DNA doesn’t change the fact that Greece hasn’t learned anything from the ancient…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            O.k. but in this case give us some time to catch up.

            When the ancient Greeks flourished there was no opposing force in letters and science. The only opposing force was military and it was the Persians.

            In today’s world we have many more players and in order to distinguish yourself some more time is needed. We haven’t even had 200 years yet from the Turkish yoke and we have achieved quite a bit.

            In the US, which is neutral territory, Greeks are a very close 2nd to Jewish people in terms of prosperity and intellectual achievement. We beat all other ethnicities hands down. For us the Germans in America are but crude barbarians and we easily dominate them in non-European soil.

            The same thing will happen in Europe. Give us another 50 years and you will see.

          • Emre

            Ok Phoevos (I just found out that you changed name..I should have guessed!)…That is a better answer. I wouldn’t make comparisons in neutral territory because you are actually using their resources to study, work etc. US for Germans wouldn’t be a neutral territory actually :)
            So the real thing is really in our countries where we should focus.

      • Makos

        Emre Greeks are socialists/leftists as to a 60% since WWII. Right wing governments are rather the exception. Especially after the military junta regime that collapsed in 1974 the socialist/leftist ideology is the dominant factor in Greek politics.

        Don’t judge from those commenting here, we are not representative of the general population.

        The historic events of WWII and the military junta conveinced a vast part of the Greek society that nationalism is a bad bad thing, a dangerous thing.

        In fact if you tell to an average Greek that you are a nationalist (even a mild one) he will instantly discredeted you and probably will never talk you again (not for your nationality but because of your ideology).

        Greece might have an extreme right wing political party in the parliament right now but this is attributed to a protest by some right-wing voters that felt betrayed by their tradiotional party (New Democracy) becasue of its mishandling in public economics and the economic crisis. These people are not responsible voters for sure but they are not extremists as well. After all this new party is highly marginilized by everyone in Greece. Extreme conditions usually lead to rise of extremists. Fortunately this represents just a 5% for Greece.

        New Democracy, the traditional right wing party in Greece, the one that won the recent elections, is self descibing as a party of the center. Trying to get as most votes as possible from the moderate socialist majority it has long abondoned any extreme right wing political positions (I actually do not know if it had any in the first place).

        On the other hand I do not know what’s going on in Turkey right now. A few years ago I listened to a very renowned Greek professor, a Turkologist, who was also very interested in Turkish politics. This professor (Neoklis Sarris was he name), told in his speech that the most leftist party in Turkey is far more right than what the most extreme right wing party is in Greece. Maybe this was an exaggeration, but he surely wanted to stress that there is no trully leftish or socialist party in Turkey. He attributed that mainly to the control of politics from the army (that speech was before AKP came into power) and to Ataturk’s ideology that is still dominant in modern Turkey if not enforced.

        • Emre

          Makos, I know that Greek politicians as well as Turkish used the Greek threat/Turkish threat propoganda and with hard stance against each other gained votes. So, I think it is quite similiar in terms of the idea. One doesn’t have to be left/right to be nationalist. I think the love you have for your country shouldn’t be mixed up with extremism. In Turkey, from what I know, Nazi kind of extremism never had the upper hand and noone would vote for the trash like pure Turkish blood etc (something which doesn’t even exist as we are quite mixed up). But when it comes to patriotism, yes I think every party in Turkey is quite patriotic.
          Extremism of any kind is not healthy…

  • Varangianguard74

    I have not read all preceding comments, however, I would like to say that Syria is fully justified in shooting down an unidentified aircraft that invades their airspace. Turkey has been doing this for decades with Greece (and presumably with other neighbouring countries) and no one has had the guts to enforce their sovereign airspace by actually shooting down the violators. Yes, usually an interception routine takes place which is beneficial for both sides, in terms of combat readines, training etc. However, Turkey is always the aggressor and they violate their neighbours’ airspace with impunity. Turkey: stop being a bully and try to exercise some tact and diplomacy for once. Greece: take a lesson from Syria.

  • kasomoulis

    canavar,
    Two US aircraft carriers in the eastern Med. British special forces on the ground in Syria, Turkish tanks and armored vehicles and a mess of military at the Syrian-Turkish borders, Greece and Cyprus have been asked for use the airspace and of Souda base, and Saudi tanks are on the stand by in Jordan, the Russians seem to agree with some of the removal of Assad, China is racing a force and headed elsewhere (not to the Med), + + + what do you think that spells?
    The only thing that is out of synch here is; inside Syria at the Turkish-Syrian borders (Syrian Kurdistan) there are Kurdish road blocks displaying the Kurdish flags (?).
    Is there a no-fly zone planned?
    Very exciting times indeed!

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      It looks like both Syrian and Turkish Kurds are already operating from inside Syria:

      http://www.timesofisrael.com/assad-lets-kurdish-pkk-rebels-operate-against-turkey-from-inside-syria/

    • canavar

      Kas, I’m very skeptical. See my reply to Dean.

      Incidentally I assume you are a Greek American because of your comments on the New Jersey Senate election.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        I don’t think there is a need for a no-fly zone in Syria. Syrian airforce is not used for anything at the moment.

        In the Libyan case, Quadaffi’s airforce was used to kill the eastern rebels. So, there was a humanitarian reason to intervene.

        But let us not kid ourselves. Syria produces no oil and its defenses are 10 times harder than Libya’s. Which in practial terms means no intervention.

        Because every military planner in this world will tell you that you need a very clear mission objective before you engage. There is no mission for the US here, nor the West. The only one itching for a fight is Turkey but only if it free loads on others.

        There is no way Turkey can take on Syria one on one and there is no way that the “others” will start a fight so that Turkey can get it out of her system.

        • canavar

          Also a Syrian intervention followed by trouble from Iran and Hezbollah could trigger a widespread war. I think despite their big mouths, the power right now of Iran would be limited to sending troops into Syria, closing the Gulf of Hormuz, trying to intimidate those who purchase Iranian oil, like Greece, blaming the Jews, and of course, a much higher bombast level than usual.

          Hezbollah is a different story. The Lebanon-Israel border has been silent for some time. But if Hezbollah started to fire rockets into Israel again, I would expect a massive attack on Lebanon by sea, air and land(SEAL, like our elite special force’s name) land. With Netanyahoo instead of Olmert in charge and Liberman as cheerleader, Israel would deal a devastating blow to Hezbollah, which would be of great consequence to Syria and Iraq, probably leading to escalation and perhaps wider war.

          This scenario won’t happen in Syria because we won’t get involved. But it would happen if Israel attacked Iran, which is an ever increasing possibility. (From the J. Post, Israelis, at least those who post) overwhelmingly believe that sanctions won’t stop Iran from building its nukes.).

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Canavar:

            The way I see it the Israelis are playing it right. Because in the correct application of geopolitical pressure no options are off the table. Everything goes so the enemy feels maximum psychological pressure.

            So, I never expect the Israelis to ever suggest that bombing Iranian reactors is off the table nor I am here to dilute any notion that the Israelis could not respond in a certain way.

            Israel is now a friend of Greece and our Israeli friends could adopt any language and posture they please. In fact they should.

            And I am not going to engage into a logical peeling off the onion leaves to reveal any Israeli short comings (of which I am sure they are none).

            Our place on this one(Greece) is to be shoulder to shoulder with our Israeli friends. If they say “go” we say “go”. If they say “stop” we say “stop”. We are not here to pay a disservice to Israel. Quite the contrary, we are here to facilitate our friends and cause maximum discomfort to our enemies.

          • canavar

            I don’t understand. I never said or implied anything about a disservice to Israel. I just mentioned my opinion of what could happen if Israel struck. It’s very unpleasant but I think it is a lot better than have the mad mullahs and the odious Ahmadinejad to get the bomb. The implications for stability and spreading of nukes is baleful.

            Anyway as either Dean or Phoevos I always enjoy your comments.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Thanks. Likewise.

            True you never said or implied anything. I just gave the diplomatic answer.

            But the truth is that our friendship with Israel does not allow us maximum freedom of opinion.

            There are some many different ways and combinations looking at things. But eventually we need to pick a side and stick with it.

            Some of my compatriots actually feel the need to have their cake and eat it too. But life does not work that way. We can’t be all things to all people. Only true friendships will get us through adversity.

            We can’t be strong friends of Russia and reliable partners of the US. Nor can we be fine with enemies of Israel and expect Israel’s support. We should talk to everybody so that we can be channels of communication and of use to our allies. But we can’t be friends with everyone and everybody. Otherwise we risk be painted as opportunists. And as opportunists we are not even good to ourselves.

            Just look at the Turks. One day they are charting their own course and the next are playing friends of the West. We don’t want to be seen like that. Because to us this means that eveyone else thinks of us as unreliable.

          • O1acimasiz

            Hmm,is there ever gonna be a post without involving us Turks?
            You Greeks cheated the EU for years,and the rest of europe thinks highly of you!
            Or am i dreaming?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            o.k.

            You call us names. But do you seriously think we have a future together?

            Are you suggesting that Greece is better off with Turkey than the EU?

            BTW, the reason the comments are about Turkey is because of the topic of this article.

          • O1acimasiz

            Just think of this,if there were no problems between Greece and Turkey about the eagean or Cyprus.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Then explain. How can we be together? What are we to do for each other?

          • O1acimasiz

            Find a way to resolve the Eagean and Cyprus,thats it.
            I dont see any other problems between the two states,do you?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            o.k.

          • O1acimasiz

            You should understand one thing,Ahmedinejad has nothing to say in Iran.
            He can only tell what has been told to him by the mullahs.
            He is just a face in a suit.

          • O1acimasiz

            Go with what to whome?
            To us Turks surely.
            Dean i tought you were a intelligent guy but by these two post you showed how naive you are.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            O1:

            Why do you have this sense that is always about you?

            You think that our friendship with Israel is to irritate you?

            No, it was your weakening relationship with Israel that made Israel to take the initiative. This doesn’t mean that we did it to piss you off.

            It means that we finally had an opening on something it did not exist before. And we both took it.

            Why are you so thin skinned about Turkey? Can you name a country in our region that you consider a close friend? Bulgaria? Romania? Serbia? Cyprus? Iran? Iraq? Lebanon? Jordan? Egypt? Who is your true friend?

          • O1acimasiz

            Now,thanks to this gouvernment we dont have any ”friends”left.
            It used to be Israel.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Greece then? :-)

          • O1acimasiz

            HAHAHAH,yeah sure why not.
            We dont have problems with Greece ,its the other way.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            o.k. let’s try for a week to be in our best behavior and see how it goes.

          • Emre

            Acimasiz, when will you understand that if Israel was our real friend, no matter how the government is doing, our relationship wouldn’t get worse.
            And don’t forget the ambassador incident (where they made our ambassador sit in a lower chair). But most important, when they started the Cast Lead operation when Turkey was trying to brokership a peace agreement between Israel/Syria/Hamas. And when we opposed the operation, we were bad friends…

          • O1acimasiz

            Well emre if it wasnt for this gouvernment we wouldnt be so close to the arabs and Iran(no matter which one).
            If i have to choose between arabs and israelis ill take Israel.
            You think Iran with nukes is good for us?
            We had a good relationship with Israel(economic and military).
            There are friendly countries(friends is a big word)Israel was one of them.
            And now tell me zero problems policy,how many of our neighbours are friendly towards us?

        • canavar

          Dean,

          I want to mention two other things you touched on in your CFR posts.

          1. You said that the reason for the unending hostility between Greece and Cyprus on one hand and Turkey on the other, is that they represent mutually incompatible civilizations.
          Having lived in Turkey, it is clear to me that this is true but it doesn’t imply anything about “superiority” or” inferiority”. As a trivial example ( a feeble attempt at a joke), even though I’m a Hellenophile, I must say that donner kebap is far superior to gyros.

          2. You also said Greece, in terms of science, and so on Greece will be back in 50 years or less. I believe that the ethnicities that most value knowledge are the Greeks, Chinese, Indians, and the Jews. So I think your claim is probable

          Moreover, in America, our Indian and Chinese citizens are greatly (in terms of their numbers) overrepresented as university professors. And in all national math and science competitions, the winners are very disproportionately Chinese American and Indian American students .

          3. In response to a statement that Greeks should forget their past, since it is a very long time ago and has nothing to do with modern Greeks. I object. Jewish friends have invited me to Seders. From these experiences, I know that modern Jews are also very much tied to their ancestors. The Seder is drowned in symbolic veneration of their inheritance. Two examples are that the door is left open for the prophet Elijai. Secon everyone has to successively taste ten bitter herbs. If I remember right these are meant to commemorate the ten plagues on the Egyptians.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Agreed. Even though I don’t really know the difference between donner and gyros. Aren’t the same? :-) And aren’t Greek and Turkish coffee the same also?

            Just because we don’t seem to have common ground with the Turks, it doesn’t mean we just don’t know how to have fun with them. :-)

          • canavar

            First, I always drank tea Turkey and I’ve never been outside of Athens’ airport in Greece so I know nothing about the two coffees.

            My favorite food in Turkey was donner with yogurt.
            When I came back to the States I really missed it. People told me gyros was the same. I ate gyros once only once and I can tell you that for me donner is vastly superior!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            o .k. it could just be a matter of origin. I ate gyros in the US too and didn’t like it at all.

            Gyros in Greek means “round” or whatever “goes around” which is a perfect description of donner. So, i am guessing it’s the same thing.

            The best place for Greek gyros are places in Monastiraki (at the foothills of Acropolis) just after you exit the metro station. In fact a restaurant called “Thanasis” which also serves some form of skewered elongated meatloaf(biftek in Turkish, I think).

          • canavar

            Very interesting. Doner it a Turkish word meaning it returns which can be interpreted to mean it rotates. I wonder if this is the origin of the name doner kebap (unfortunately misspelled above).
            If so doner and gyros are merely translations of one another–interesting.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            I am sure it’s Turkish way of cooking. The Greek version means the same.

          • canavar

            Actually in Turkish Iwould call meat loaf
            at. If I’m wrong, Emre or acimasiz can you correct me?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            It’s basically a hamburger. But instead of a round appearance it’s assembled around a skewer in a long format. So the hamburger man lays the skewers on the grill and when both sides are done, he then grabs a thick round pita bread which he envelops around the skewer and then pulls the skewer out while the hamburger is now within the folded pita bread. He then adds onions, ripe tomatoes and tzatziki (yogurt with garlic beaten into a thicker sauce) and voila. You have the “souvlaki” which in Greek means skewer.

            You can see the place and procedure here. And it’s a must should you Emre or O1 ever visit Athens. The Monastiraki metro station is across the street from the old mosque. The name of the hamburher stand is Thanasis(you can see it on the video).

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jjfc2iKWvAI

          • Emre

            Yum yum yum…This looks delicious!
            It is shish kebap…We call it Adana kebap or Urfa kebap. These are 2 cities. Adana is the spicy one..Urfa isn’t..
            When I was in states I ate Doner as well but it has NOTHING to do with what you eat in Turkey. So, canavar it is normal that Gyros you had in states isn’t the same quality of in Greece…
            As for visiting Athens or Greece, I think it is a must…I am quite curious about the culture and see the “familiarities” that both countries possess. 7-8 years ago, I would never think of sth like this but now I am better informed.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            So, this is shish kebap! I got it now.

          • Emre

            Uffff I am without space..Dean, see my other post..

          • O1acimasiz

            Thats called Adana kebab in Turkey

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            And here is the gyros. I am sure the exact same as doner:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=PdQiIE338aI

          • O1acimasiz

            ET=meat,Biftek=steak

          • canavar

            Yes of course ET.

            By the way I never ate Andana kebap. It sounds delicious. But another food I often ate in Turkey was kofte.
            However I have one horrible memory about kofte. I didn’t have much money so I normally ate at cheap restaurants.
            (I remember only one “expensive” meal. With some American friends I went to a sea food restaurant called Yakamoz and had a marvelous dinner. If Yakamoz still exists in Ankara please let me know.)
            Anyway I had kadin budu kofte at a cheap restaurant and got food poisoning. I was deathly ill for at least 24 hours. It is one of my most miserable experiences.

          • canavar

            ET not AT? Only if you don’t like horse meat!

          • canavar

            This is probably worth nothing. But I want to tell you about my posting name Canavar, on the small chance that you won’t be annoyed. First since in Turkish c without a cedilla is pronounced like an English j, canavar is pronounced “johnavar”. Also my name is almost a joke since canavar is the Turkish word for monster.

            But it is not quite a joke since canavar also means something that is very powerful and unstoppable. Thus canavar , I think, could positively describe an outstanding sports team.

            I’m using canavar in this second sense–so look out.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Nice of you to tell me the new rules in the middle of the game. :-)

            So, losing now is obligatory?

          • kasomoulis

            Gyros is done differently depending where it is made! Gyros in Germany (made from pork and sold by Greeks and Turks) is different than that made in Greece and yet different than that made in America. To be able to compare between donner and the Greek gyros you must eat it in Greece and Turkey.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            BTW, I think Israel will get the protection of this system soon:

            http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2012/06/27/on-patrol-the-navys-ballistic-missile-defense/

          • kasomoulis

            I agree the past in not relevant and must not be forgotten!
            I think eventually when DNA will be able to trace things (details) back, the Greeks, and Jews (people with continuous history and culture since the antiquity) will find that the past is actually present and future.
            If you read actual, historical events written as they happen on the Greek side they have been exactly the same as currently with Greek political, social and cultural behavior. Every little historical event has been, is currently and will be, I think, translated into history with a tragedy flavor.. Unless it is a comedy… and Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides… live on!

          • kasomoulis

            Actually I meant IRRELEVANT! in regards to our ethnic past canavar, I do lots of typos as English was my forth language even though it is my currently and for the last fourty years, spoken language. I am writing this as I am watching the Washington mall music and fireworks listening to Chikofs…… ‘s 1812 overture… with the fireworks going up…. quite a show.. met by feelings of joy!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Happy 4th to All American friends and allies!!!!

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ETrr-XHBjE

        • O1acimasiz

          There is no way Turkey can take on Syria one on one and there is no way that the “others” will start a fight so that Turkey can get it out of her system

          You are joking right?
          How did you come to this conclusion?
          See what i mean?
          You greeks allways do this,so Turkey cant take Syria one on one?
          Dude you talking bullshit!

          • canavar

            Acimasiz, Of course in normal times Turkey could easily kick Syria’s butt to the moon.
            But these aren’t normal times. They are times of civil war. If Turkey invaded Syria it would get embroiled in this mess with unpredictable geopolitical consequences; and it might even lead to war with Iran. So I think an attack on Syria at this time would be very unwise. From reading Hurriyet tonight it seems that by very large margins the Turkish people agree with this assessment.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            O1:

            Why are you getting upset at me? Isn’t it a fact that a Turkish plane has been downed by Syria? If so, what prevents Turkey from sending an air force squadron to do some damage in Syria?

            This is what I mean one on one. You have this childish view that we will gather all Turkish forces on one side of the river and Syrian on the other and whoever has more toy soldiers wins. We are not playing games here.

            Don’t you have a Navy? Why don’t you bombard a Syrian port for example as a reply to losing one of your planes?

          • O1acimasiz

            There are rules for engagement,Turkey is just waiting for no 3.
            Then we have a right to attack.
            If we did it now we would be the agressor,surely you understand that?
            This gouvernment is a puppit of the US,so tey cant act on their own,thats one of the reasons i dont like this gouvernment.
            Any other gouvernment would have done something,n matter what consequenses

          • Emre

            Turkey knows that our plane was shot in Syrian airspace. No way that we are going to bombard a Syrian port without having a big rightful reason.
            Also Russian interference is high in Syria with an existing port…
            I think Turkey doesn’t win anything if it goes all out war with Syria.
            Acimasiz, this government as well as other governments are/were puppets of US. However, I don’t remember of any other govenment this active in international affairs.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Emre. I am just teasing you. I know.

          • O1acimasiz

            Active yes but in a good way?

      • kasomoulis

        yes, though not in NJ – I do support people that are friends of Greece wherever they may be in the US and around the W……..
        could not respond for a few days, We just got power and communication back.. So you know… about my coordinates.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    I didn’t know that Syria had valid territorial claims against Turkey. No wonder:

    http://gulfnews.com/news/region/syria/the-syrian-turkish-rollercoaster-1.1042474

    • canavar

      If the people don’t speak Turkish why would Turkey want them?

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    BTW Canavar:

    If you interested in Greek cooking and you live in the US, then there is a program on PBS called Cooking Odyssey which visits several regions of Greece and displays local cooking:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39h2iFcao3E

    And also a YouTube channel called GreekFoodTV:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv8BxF_oiuk

    And this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=s3mLBwLQYSU

  • Emre

    Dean, i saw the site you refered to. Very interesting. Tell me something, how would be a Turk treated in Athens or anywhere in Greece if you are noticed to be Turk? Is it safe saying that you are from Turkey?
    I say this because when I was abroad, I went to an Erasmus (student exchange program) party. At this party, I was talking to a really nice girl. All was going absolutely fine until she told me that she was Greek and I told her: “How nice, I am from Turkey, we are neighbours”. Conversation finished in a second! looooool

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      It would be more than fine. Last time I was up in the Acropolis I was walking next to a very attractive lady from Turkey(slender and statuesque – almost Greek looking). So, I told her among other things “welcome to my country” to which she replied with a spirit in her eye “you should come to my country”.

      Actually you will be surprised. You would feel among friends. And the same would apply to every Greek comming to Turkey. As I said before connecting at people’s level would be easy and very natural.

      I think you should visit Thessaloniki where I am from, to see Kemal’s house. You should then head for the islands or Epirous or Messinia in the Ionian sea. This is a place you might like to visit:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hevNoJEbedQ

      This also might give you ideas about less ordinary parts of Greece:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hevNoJEbedQ

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        Or Emre maybe you like this better. It up to your personal preference:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M84us5Wvy2U

        The basic idea is to avoid Athens if you can and go for the relaxing part instead.

        • Emre

          Santorini looks amazing…but I would prefer a cultural visit to Greece. To see its daily life, habits and the familiarities between our people…and the remnants of the ancient Greece…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            o.k I hear you. This would be my preference too. Start with Thessaloniki. I think you would like. And take the trip form Thessaloniki through Northern Greece to Naoussa and Epirus.

          • kasomoulis

            Kalabaka, Dean! Meteora is worth seen any time.

          • kasomoulis

            I spent 12 days there last year Emre…. great place, if you go get a good camera… the best sun setting you’v ever seen. I have some amazing pictures. You can go there from Smirni!!!, sorry Ismir.. well you do not have to tell them you are a Turk… just joking!.. they will love you for your cash, no matter what you are, just do not bring along the Turkish navy!

      • canavar

        I bookmarked your Youtube link but was then disappointed to find out it was a commercial for Westin Hotels—in (near) IMAX to boot!
        I want to see Greece not five star hotels.

        Also where are the most beautiful places and what are the best foods in Cyprus. I assume that Greek and Cypriot food are very distinct.

      • Emre

        that Westin hotel is incredible…but I can’t afford it I guess lol

      • kasomoulis

        Hi Dean,
        Have you been in Costa Navision? Beautiful place!
        I grew up in the neighborhood from there. We visit there every year. With my wife we plan to play golf in CN this September we will spend a couple of months in Greece.
        I always wanted to visit Turkey but still have nightmares about it because we had planned to do it back in the nineties just before the bus w/Greek tourists was torched in Istanbul and we did not finally go – by the way if my memory still serves me the current Turkish PM was the mayor of Inst. then.
        A trip to Inst. two years ago on business, we encountered armed taxi drivers and guards al over the place. Hopefully the situation is better and it is safe to go as a tourist now.

        • kasomoulis

          I know what I wrote was COSTA NAVARINO!!!!!!! How did “costa Navision” come into this ????? What the helll??????

        • O1acimasiz

          Turkey is a safe place for tourist,dont worry and if you say you are Greek you will see that evryone is friendly,nobody hates Greeks.

  • canavar

    I looked at Hurriyet a few hours ago. The Syrian business has definitely faded in Turkey for the present. Let’s hope it will stay faded.

    Incidentally, without knowing anything about Greek politics my guess is that the Golden Dawn will fade once Greece begins to recover economically. Extremist groups always emerge in times of national stress, like worms come out of the ground after a Spring rain.

    For example in America, in the 1930′s extremists on both the right and left became very visible. Communism became domesticated, as many socialists went far further to the left.

    Fascism was even more prevalent. The radio shows of anti-Semitic populist Gerald L.K. Smith were very popular. Rogue priest Father Coughlin was making himself famous spewing similar venom from his radio pulpit. Henry Ford was forever tarnishing his reputation by publishing Jew hate in his own newspaper. America First isolationism, lead by none other than Charles Lindbergh, was Nazism light. Most disgusting was the German American Bund. In America’s German Town, Milwaukee Wisconsin, they held a 50,000 person parade of people wearing Brown Shirt uniforms and carrying both Nazi and American flags. Shockingly the Bund was funded and controlled by the GERMAN Nazi party. In fact Hitler tried to remove their leader, who was also call Fuhrer.

    But today these vermin are only remembered in the nursing homes, and by people like me who are interested in WWII history.

    I wonder who will remember the Golden Dawn in 2090.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      Actually Golden Dawn is deep down embarrassing.

      Look at one of their unspeakables hit a leftist MP (with a big mouth), but regardless no civilized people can do that:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nte1UtRww_k

      The other more embrassing thing was an attack on a Jewish reporter (what a shame!!!):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MZo2Ci-_dQ

      I have no idea where these people come from. Our deepest apologies for such disgusting behavior to our Jewish friends and all others.

    • Emre

      “I looked at Hurriyet a few hours ago. The Syrian business has definitely faded in Turkey for the present. Let’s hope it will stay faded.” canavar, explain yourself please, I didn’t understand your comment…

      • canavar

        All I meant is that it wasn’t on the headline page of the online edition of Hurriyet. It had dominated the headlines two days before, was less dominant the day before, only one story (except for columnists), and no front page presence the day I wrote this note. But I have no idea of how typical Turkish people felt about things.

        Keep posting on this site. Monolithic agreement gets boring.

      • canavar

        As you probably know the bodies of the two Turkish pilots have just been found. What do you think will happen in Turkey?

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Emre:

    A good way to decide which part of Greece you would like to visit is a flyover:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhVMd8iXHMo

    • canavar

      A great sense of humor!

  • canavar

    Now that the bodies of the two Turkish airmen have been found, what will be Turkey’s reaction? They said after all facts were in theywill take action. If they don’t, why would the reaction be so much less than that to the Mavi Marmora incident. Maybe Turkey doesn’t want trouble with Muslims but is happy to say Israel’s attack is a causus belli. Acimasiz says Israel-Turkey relations will be normalized in a year. Maybe diplomatic relations, but that’s it. If the talk backs on the J. Post mean anything, most Israelis loath Erdogan’s Turkey. The special relations may never come back in the foreseeable future.

    • O1acimasiz

      Its not a choise,Iran is more dangerous to Turkey then to Israel.
      You will see,they will find a way to normalise relations.

  • kasomoulis

    Actually I meant IRRELEVANT! in regards to our ethnic past canavar, I do lots of typos as English was my forth language even though it is my currently and for the last fourty years, spoken language. I am writing this as I am watching the Washington mall music and fireworks listening to Chikofs…… ‘s 1812 overture… with the fireworks going up…. quite a show.. met by feelings of joy!

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    This is for Emre and the Turkish audience of this blog. You say you want to understand us.

    Since we are not sure if they teach you this in Turkish schools, here is a simple presentation for children about the ancestral homeland of the Greeks and how trade had shaped our world(500 BC).

    Pay very close attention to the lands currently part of Turkey if you truly want to understand the Greek world. Keep clicking on the arrow at the top right of the page.

    http://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkf3/imaps/AC_11_351_grtrade/AC_11_351_grtrade.html

    • O1acimasiz

      Then,the US should give back to the Indians their homeland,Australia to the, aboriginals,Russia to the all the indignous people,Iran to azerbaijan(south azerbaijan).Polen to germany.China to Tibet and the Uygurs,you want me to go on Dean?

      • canavar

        Part 1. I’m writing this not in a few parts, since tonight I can finish the whole thing.

        You are right. I have a wonderful map in my office. Each region (China, America’s Egypt, Italy, and so on), is located on an X-axis–leftmost is furthest West, and a larger portion of the X-axis means a bigger region. The new feature is that the epoch(sometimes a civilization, other times a barbarian occupation) is located on the Y-axis–bottom to top is most recent to earliest. The longer the epoch’s duration, the bigger the portion of the Y-axis it encompasses. Also everything is color coded,

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        O1acimasiz:

        I don’t know. And I don’t have any particular advice at where you should go but since you are a friend, I will give you a head start:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGcDed4xVD4

      • canavar

        Part 2.
        I will explain how this novel space-time map words for Anatolia.
        This is the order of the major civilizations going backwards in time.

        1. Turkish Republic.
        2. Ottoman Empire
        3. Byzantine Empire
        4. Roman Empire
        5. Christ
        6. Seleucid Empire
        7. Persian Empire
        8. Lydia
        9. Phrygia
        10. Iron Age
        11. Hittites
        12. Mitanni
        13. Bronze Age
        14. Prehistory starts ~ 2300 BC

      • canavar

        Part 3.

        The obvious lesson of history is that no people is entitled to a land. A people can possess a land only if they can defend it. If they can’t they will be replaced by a more powerful nation.

        This is much older than history. The Neanderthals were the masters of Europe for ~250,000 years before they were replaced by our kind of people during the period ~39,000-28,000 years ago.

      • canavar

        Part 4.

        The brutal laws of history of course have not been suddenly shut off in our times. This is absurd since extinction and replacement began in the earliest epochs of life starting ~ 4 billion years ago not with the start of writing and the end of prehistory.

        An current example is the replacement of the Palestinians by the Israelis.
        The Palestinians could survive as a minor group if the cut a deal with the Israelis–but only then. But because of their inability to see geopolitical reality, they refuse

      • canavar

        Part 4. cont’d

        to save themselves. If they cling to their delusions, in a very short time, on historical scales, they will be remembered as well as the Phrygians.

        So its real negotiations, with reality perceived by the Palestinians, which might save them. The Mavi Marmora incident is just deadly international theatrics, which if it gives the Palestinians delusional hopes will tend to destroy not help them. Erdogan’s antics might win him temporary popularity with the “Arab Street” , but the “Street’s” mindless frenzy which if further co-opted by the Palestinians spells their doom.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Happy Birthday America!

    What an awesome National Anthem, especially after minute 1:22 (this the real good stuff):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAYPN-1Yjt0

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Emre, Kaso, Canavar:

    This maybe the best part of Greece worth visting:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMXPVBKQhtk

    • kasomoulis

      Thanks Dean, I have some good memories from Kerkira.
      beautiful place Kerkira! My wife and I spent August 1972 there. We rented a motor bike and went all over the island (I have the Paliokastritsa site painted out of a post card in my living room). I have not been there since. Last year we went to Kefallinia and Skiathos. This year we will probably hop out of Pylos to Spetse and Hydra. These islands do not allow cars and we are walkers. We enjoyed walking there four years ago, beautiful trails on the mountain. Unfortunately the fires have done significant damage to the mountain sides.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        Hydra is great. Had my honeymoon there.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fAKvSp4llw

        and

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYxbEHrcU8g

        Kaso, if you have the time try Mani also:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDZTiUtgHf8

        • kasomoulis

          I have been to Kardamyli a few times. My folks came from Chios back in the 1600s (chios destruction) and settled in Mani – before they finally settle in the current location in Messenia after the destruction of Ibrahim’s fleet in Pylos. So we had to go search for the towers where the family legend guided us to meet those of our family that did not relocate.
          Either you have an incredible vid. library or access to one… or lots of time to connect to the Greek EOT. Are you located in Greece..
          Thanks

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Kaso, you can Google my name.

            Actually on Youtube you can type anything and press “search”. My library is YouTube material which is also everyone’s library. The more you search the better your search results. Just use key words.

          • kasomoulis

            OK Dean, P&A…. never thought of that….. Glad to meet you. If I ever get that far west I may call to meet you.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Absolutely.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            And Kaso: Since you like walking don’t forget to visit the House of the Gods:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnsCHnf1KRY

          • kasomoulis

            Good show…… I always wanted to go there… I will consider it when next time in Greece. I have been north as far as Metsovo where we spent some time there and the real treat for us was Ioannina we got to stay a couple of days inside the fort and visited Ali pasha’s last hiding and place of rest.
            We prefer the islands though I have been in Thrace and traveled a bit in Makedonia and Thrace, for I served in the Army there in the Thracian fylakia.
            When you talked about the area with the Turkish products declared for Bulgaria and sold in Greece, I know the area like the palm of my hand – I have been all over – hunted wild boar there.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Unfortunately, with tactics like this it would be very difficult to improve Greek-Turkish relations:

    http://www.makthes.gr/news/reportage/90509/

    • O1acimasiz

      my greek is so good i know what you mean!
      What tactics?
      See what you do?
      So we Turks did this,all 80 mil?
      Whit people like you we cant improve relations,right you are!

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        If you don’t mind highlight the article and then cut it and paste into any translator site. From Greek to English. My translator does not do a very good job.

        See if you can read it:

        Mammoth racket with imports from Turkey

        In the category: Reportage
        Date: 05/07/2012

        Great racket to virtual cargoes destined for Bulgaria, but actually put on the Greek market, without paying taxes and duties on the products, it explores the SDOE in Thrace.

        .

        Cycles of “Rambo” speak for annual losses to the State, with rough calculations can be up to 10 billion, with direct involvement of staff services that make “blind eye”.
        The inquiry was launched yesterday by order of the prosecutor Orestiada, after the arrest of two executives of customs Orestiada namely its director and head of the judicial department. Her refusal, as accused, to charge notices duties and taxes on cargo owner who came from Turkey, Bulgaria having destination, but never crossed the borders of the neighboring country.

        The scam starts from the application of the “status 42″, which refers to the provisions on intra-EU imports, which are characterized by multiple perforations. Under this scheme, when an introduction to Greece from a third country like Turkey, but having another European destination countries such as Bulgaria, the Greek customs no duties and VAT as those imposed on the country of destination. “In this way, according to the indications we have, put on the Greek market with hundreds of loads of products for which the government is losing billions of euros since they never leave our country,” said speaking on “M” strain of Financial Crime monitor the progress of research.

        “The 1/3 of load leads to the Greek market”
        Circles of the House Economic Crime Eastern Macedonia – Thrace, the last two months there was information indicating that hundreds of imported cargoes final destination Bulgaria never be routed the Greek-Bulgarian border. “This information tells us that 1/3 of the cargo passing through the suspension system of taxation leads to the Greek market,” remarked member of the House. “We have become strainer must be immediately put a brake, the public is losing too much revenue,” he said. According to rough calculations, as there are no statistics from the Turkish border two months entering 6,000 such loads, including some with suspension, after heading for other European countries, especially Bulgaria. “Maybe two months to lose up to 1.5 billion from taxes and duties of such products that pass … the air,” say members of the financial prosecutors.

        The truck with clothes
        In the survey, monitored the progress of a truck with clothes imported from Turkey and was checked at the office Orestiada, where the suspension was applied as it was destined for Bulgaria. The truck followed the road to the Greek-Bulgarian border in the Countryside Drama, but came close when he returned and stopped in Komotini. There were raided by the Financial Crime and the owner, having found that the products will be channeled to the “black” Greek market, agreed to immediately pay duties and taxes attributable amounting to 4,000 euros to have no effect on criminal charges of smuggling . But in case of such cases in that controlled banned such imports in future.
        “The customs authorities that control the load is prosecuting authorities must verify each point,” stressed executives SDOE. They said that when these virtual services in Bulgaria, recipient companies are always the same, which is non-existent, but for it to be inspected.

        Arrests after tension
        The load detection clothes was a reason for the arrest of the director and officer of the judicial office by members of Orestiada SDOE. According to the indictment and the two allegedly tried to “protect” the owner of the cargo violated the law. As executives say SDOE two officials insisted that the office of the owner “is known taxpayer who has not given rise” and refused to complete the imputation acts on customs duties and taxes of the load, stressing that the case should be brought to record. Indeed, as pointed out by SDOE hear that the cargo was returning to Orestiada, because the driver had forgotten a … paper.
        The arrest was Orestiada intervention of the prosecutor, who brought against them prosecuted for disloyalty and disobedience in the service, taking them to trial yesterday in the act of committing a three-judge District Court. From the court the accused customs officials got postponed for trial today. In the discussions that had refused to have any involvement with the case, noting that all procedures were entirely legitimate, the government did not lose money and that the case was created strains of Financial Crime.
        However, in response to this incident, the prosecutor ordered the Financial Crime to conduct general research on all imports – exports such. In order to investigate and asked responsibilities customs officers, who went from suspect loads ..

        • Emre

          Dean, it is a financial scam who are done by companies etc. No way that Turkish government is supporting these kind of situations. Actually, Turkish government has no jurisdiction in Greece to control these. I don’t know why you generalize this as if it is a an assault to Greece. It is ordinary crime that authorities have to act…

          As for the plane, from the wreckage it is said that there are no bullet signs on it but it is still unclear.

    • Emre

      What is it saying Dean?

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        Sorry my Google translator does a bad job. But as you can see the recovered items indicate that there was probably no aircraft fire that brought the plane down. The best estimate is that the plane was hit about 1.5 miles from the Syrian coast and then the pilot managed to keep it in the air for about 60 seconds with the plane coming down on mile 8.5 from the Syrian coast. Given the 12-mile territorial waters for Syria it looks like the plane was clearly and very deeply in Syrian territory when it was hit.

        What does the Turkish press say?

        Sorry, I just realized this is the truck story. What it says is that Turkish trucks cross the Greek border declaring that their ultimate destination is Bulgaria. EU rules say that if a truck just passes through, customs are paid in the country of destination. However what happened in this case they found an organized wring with trucks entering Greece and then never going to Bulgaria but rather selling their cargo in Greece instead. The customs officers say that the damage could be as high as 10 Billion euros in unpaid fees to the state. Plus the fact that Turkey exports much,much more to Greece than your official TurkStat figures indicate. If the custom fees are 10 Bil. (cumulative) imagine the actual value of the goods. It appears that this has been going on for years and they just busted a small part of the whole enterprise.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Emre:

    This might please you. They talk about the old Turkish quarter in Thessaloniki:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCXB1dtkLKo

    • Makos

      Dean I especially enjoyed the cocktails on this video. I look forward to my next visit on Thessaloniki.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        I was thinking the same thing. I could have done the drinking on her behalf. :-)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Here is Hydra again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDfCjrXuZ3c

    By the way, for anyone interested harvesting these videos here is what you do. Set up a YouTube account (takes a few minutes). Then subscribe to a few channels which provide these videos (say, for example, the channel “visit Greece”). Every time they produce a new video you will get it first. And youTube keeps recommending similar videos based on what you watched. So before you know it, you have a modern library of Alexandia right at your fingertips.

    If you like the British lady videos(Thessaloniki) then subscribe to the channel you see at the upper left corner.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    And someone mentioned Meteora, right?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTjI3KIWrJE

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    This quote is from Turkey’s own Zaman. The latest is that the Turkish pilots ditched the planes:

    “In a statement on Wednesday, the military signaled revision in its version of the events, referring for the first time to the RF-4E Phantom that went missing as “our aircraft that Syrian authorities have claimed to have downed.” This means the plane may not have been downed by Syria at all and that it may have crashed into the water as a result of malfunction or piloting error or – assuming that the Syrians did attack the plane – faulty maneuvering while trying to escape from attack.”