Can Turkey Afford Its Extensive Defense Plans?

ANKARA — Turkey’s top procurement body twice this year has reviewed several multibillion-dollar programs on its agenda without making any decisions, leaving some analysts to wonder if Turkey could afford those projects.

The country’s current $4 billion defense budget is scheduled to double in a few years, but analysts ask how the procurement of so many systems would be possible when Turkey, so far, has spent so little on them.

But procurement officials claim the process is proceeding according to plan, which features an incremental approach to contracts and lengthy negotiations that sometimes produce better terms for Turkey, although these tactics carry risk.

At the Jan. 5 meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee, the group needed to settle on how many aircraft Turkey would purchase in its first batch of F-35 fighters so it could acquire the aircraft by 2015. So the committee came up with a number: two. The expected figure was six. Turkey would spend only a few hundred million dollars for the first batch.

“Our industry has billions of dollars of business with the F-35. We are not going to disappear soon,” one procurement official said.

The executive committee includes the prime minister, defense minister, chief of the General Staff and chief of the SSM arms procurement agency.

“Many of Turkey’s large-scale programs with foreigners, including the long-range air- and missile-defense system, costing up to $4 billion, are with foreign loans. So when a decision is made, the money to begin the project is ready. Then the Undersecretariat for Treasury takes on the debt,” one foreign analyst said. “It may look cumbersome at first, but that is how the system works here, and it’s quite effective.”

Turkey’s healthy economic outlook makes the debt assumption acceptable, the analyst added.

Still, another defense analyst said, “Turkey should simply not go forward with the long-range air- and missile-defense system program. They are both expensive and won’t protect even a small part of the country.

“Similarly, the program to acquire a landing platform dock [ship] is redundant,” the analyst said. “It’s just a huge helicopter carrier and wouldn’t help [make] things much easier.”

But according to another analyst, “the lack of money is the last obstacle you would have here. The government has a number of advantages to lengthen the process. Within the process, you may come up with better terms and conditions, better loans.

“The only thing you should be careful is not to [annoy] the seller. Because the longer the process is, the likelier that the seller may run away,” the second analyst said. “Recently, the German [shipyard] HDW got a 3.6 billion euro contract with Turkey to build six U214 submarines, but contract talks lasted more than a year, within which the project fell below 3 billion euros, so Turkey was the winner. But this was risky.”

The second analyst gave an example of Russia and China among impatient sellers.

“A few years ago, China was really willing to sell some unmanned aerial vehicles to Turkey. Then came the Israelis with their Aerostar and got the Turkish contract. The Chinese were furious. They were saying, ‘Look, they were out of the competition, and they got the contract.’ This was the last time the Chinese were around to sell UAVs.”

The first analyst also emphasized the time factor.

“If the committee again fails to make a decision on the long-range air- and missile-defense program at its next meeting sometime in November, some of the competitors might go away.”

Competitors in this program include U.S. partners Raytheon and Lockheed Martin with their Patriot-based system; Eurosam with its SAMP/T Aster 30; Russia’s Roso-boronexport, marketing the country’s S-300 system; and China’s CPMIEC (China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp.), offering its HQ-9 system.

Eurosam’s shareholders include MBDA — jointly owned by Britain’s BAE Systems, Italy’s Finmeccanica group and pan-European giant EADS — and France’s Thales. These companies will work with Turkish partners.

Many Western officials and experts said the Russian and Chinese systems in the Turkish competition are not compatible with NATO systems. Their potential victory could inadvertently provide them with access to classified NATO information and compromise NATO procedures.

Despite this criticism, Turkey has ruled against expelling the Chinese and Russian options.

Increasing unit numbers to help get a contract signed is another tactic Turkey employs in negotiations.

“Last spring, Turkey chose the U.S. Sikorsky aircraft, against Italy’s AgustaWestland, with its T-70, the Turkish version of its S-70 Black Hawk International, in the country’s utility helicopter program. And a contract still is pending,” U.S. Ambassador Frank Ricciardone said.

“What has happened is that at the time of Turkey’s decision, the general move was to build some 150 helicopters. It got up to about 600 now,” Ricciardone said.

Sikorsky agreed to boost the buy to help get the contract signed, the ambassador said.

From this point on, Turkey plans to build corvettes and frigates locally for its Navy, and to construct, possibly with South Korea, a new type of fighter jet, and to buy a landing platform dock.

“In short, defense business is still profitable with Turkey. Only the other side should be patient,” the second analyst said.

Source: defensenews.com

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  • Gaara

    So, I think the answer to question of “Can Turkey Afford Its Extensive Defense Plans?” is “Yes” acording to the article.

    • Kasomoulis

      That is great! Keep it going… after you spend yourself to bankruptcy τοο, it will be our turn to laugh and we will be last το laugh because by that time there will be no losers and winners! Nukes will be used as a matter of deterrence throughout!!!! Well…. unless the alternative is here and nukes will no longer be needed!!
      Have fun spending jerks. depriving the Kurds of their freedom and your own people of a decent health care system!!!!!

  • Ibrahim 1976

    Turkey is now a $1 trillion economy. It has $80 billion in Gold reserves alone and $50 billion in its disasters fund. I’m sure Mr. Erdogan can finance his $20 billion Defense bill. I’m more interested in why Turkey is arming itself to the teeth and why it needs Intercontinental ballistic missiles.

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      Ibrahim 1976:

      Sorry to take the wind out of you sails. Turkey is not a $1 Trillion economy. Perhaps $1 TL economy. But this is all due to inflation.

      In real GDP terms (constant prices adjusted for inflation) Turkey barely makes it to 120 Bi. Turkish liras. Which is the same way of saying about 60 Bil. euros total. Greece with its totally broken economy has a 170 Bil. euro GDP in constant prices.(about 3 times higher)

      What they don’t tell you in Turkey is what an inflationary joke these numbers you are using are. The price of gold in 2000-01 was circa $200, today at $1600 (8 times more). Therefore divide your numbers by 8 and then you have a real number.

      http://www.tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-at-constant-prices-imf-data.html

      • Ibrahim 1976
        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          Ibrahim 1976:

          The first chart related to Greece is denominated in euros. Therefore, accepted because that’s what I said before.

          The second chart must be denominated in something different than $ because the number for 2010 is something close to 380 Trillion of something. So, it can’t be dollars and it can’t be TLs.

          So please go back to the chart I gave you which shows that the adjusted for inflation Turkish GDP to be in the neighborhood of 120 Billion Turkish Liras. That’s a real, solid number. And there is no escape from it. This is hard, real facts.

      • http://www.facebook.com/cem.celik.923 Cem

        Turkey is number 18 economy with $ 778 bn GDP (Nominal) and number 16 economy with $ 1073 bn GDP (PPP) in 2011. This year it is expected to be around $ 810 bn GDP (Nominal) with % 4 growth rate.

        Treasury has $ 100 bn foreign currency.

        Gold reserve in Central Bank is 206 ton valuing around $ 11 bn.

        Inflation rate is % 9.1

        Unemployment rate is % 9

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%2

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          Cem:

          Precisely right. Nominal is not Real GDP.

          To get the Real GDP for Turkey please divide your nominal number by 10(roughly). So, that’s you REAL number. About 1/10th of what you think you got.

      • O1acimasiz

        Dean do you realy believe what you are saying?
        You are small and will remain small,get over it!
        Thats why we are in the G20?
        Because of 60 bilion euros?
        Now do i have the right to call you a dumb idiot?
        Or do you want to call yourself that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Cem and Ibrahim 1976:

    Before we start holding class on the meaning of Real vs. Nominal GDP, here is a quick way to frame the issue.

    For any country to have a Real GDP growth, such country needs to experience GDP growth rates higher than its inflation rate. Otherwise, the real growth is negative.

    Take for example country X. If country X has a rate of growth of 3% and an inflation rate of 5% for the same annual period, then the real effect is a negative growth of -2%.

    In the case of Turkey and based on your official figures of Turkstat, the expected rate of growth for 2012 is in the 2.5% range. The inflation so far has been in the 10% range. So unless Turkey finds a formula to grow more than 10% this year, this means another negative real GDP growth year.

    It ought to be quite simple to understand.

    Going back to our debate, there is nothing that prevents Turkey from spending even 50 Billion on defense. The real question is why do it? When the same money invested in the Turkish economy could yield higher returns in the long run.

    This idea of Turkey surrounded by enemies on all sides and therefore needing constant defense spending is so Middle Eastern.

    • http://www.facebook.com/cem.celik.923 Cem

      I think what you are simply saying here is that your economy is better than ours giving us lesson by comparing two economies by real GDP rates.

      I admit that your economy is better than ours by that data as you say about 3 times higher. But one indicator does not reflect whole and real situation. You need to look at other datas to diagnose the situation, like CDS rates, country credit ratings, debts etc. You can’t even pay your personnel salaries without getting loans. Your CDS rating is on top and credit raitings are at the bottom. Besides you may be let exit Euro Zone if you can not meet the conditions that you agreed on with EU and IMF.

      On the other hand we will repay the last credit we got from IMF, next year. Besides we will lend IMF $ 5 bn to be used by countries like Greece. We have stable politic and economic situation and growing economy. We have growing population and dinamic demographics unlike yours. We have industry and we are exporting goods everywhere in the world. We are installing national defence industry so we won’t be dependant to other countries’ expensive systems. We are planning our national space program. Our people do not clash with police almost everyday for trying to stop salary cuts. We have a growing tourism sector and we hosted 36 million visitors last year.

      You try to humiliate us claming we are Middle Easter. But we are proud of being so together with being Europen at the same time. We are synthesis of two worlds giving us advantage of understanding nations’ demands and cultures and offering them solutions what they need.

      You may say we never will be a member of EU. It is just fine by us. No big deal really since we are getting better as they are shrinking.

      As for troops we have in Northern Cyprus, I don’t think we will withdraw them unless there is an agreement between Turkish and Greek Cypriots.

      Sorry if I disappoint or cross you. But someone has to show you what you are dealing with. Turkey is not the same country it used to be in the past that you could pull and push. If you play with its side you will gain, or you won’t. This is that simple.

      I hope I could make myself clear friend. Have a good day.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        Yes, you make yourself clear. This syndrome you display is the well known “delusions of Turkish grandeur”. Many others have spoken about it, so it’s not a Greek invention.

        As to the loans, Grexit and such all of these are fabrications of the German kind. It’s not Greece’s fault that basically the Germans are stupid. If you don’t understand what I am saying to you, then look at Spain which in 2008 had a debt to GDP ratio of roughly 30% (vs. Germany’s 60% at the time) and was a model country by many metrics. Today Spain is in ruins due to Merkel’s austerity nonsense.

        By the way, I didn’t mean to imply that our economy is better today. In fact our rates of real growth are similar in an odd way. Whereas Greece has a negative 5%(-5%) growth rate and 2-3% inflation for a total negative real rate of 7%-8%, Turkey has also a 10% inflation and say 3% projected growth for a total negative growth of 7% (-10%+3%). So even though our departure points are different the real effective rate seems to be the same.

        Putting this aside, the real GDP numbers (even though Greece is a disaster at the moment) seem to support the thesis that Greece retains better value due to the absence of corrosive inflation (which is a systemic problem in Turkey – look at how many Turks resort to real estate as a store of value in trying to fight inflation).

        And please, putting us in our place (if someone ought to be able to do so) is certainly not Turkey’s task. We are not even the same spheres of influence to be able to talk about such things.

        Therefore, my Turkish friend rest assured that we understand you well. In fact, maybe better than yourselves.

      • Emre

        Well said Cem, and a good advice…

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          That’s perhaps the most difficult thing to understand. That somehow Greece is pushing Turkey in anyway or that Greece is interested in Turkish affairs.

          Our worlds are so different, they might as well be from a different planet.

          I know of no one in Greece that follows Turkey . Our newspapers only cover occasional violations by Turks but nothing more than that.

          So where did you get the idea that Greece is pushing Turkey around or even interested in pushing Turkey around?

          Why would Greece have any reason or benefit getting involved in Middle Eastern affairs? Because the minute we get involved with Turkey in anyway we sink into a sewer of Mid East politics which we know nothing about nor do we want ever to learn anything about.

      • O1acimasiz

        You are wrong Cem,all they can do is bark like dogs!
        These people have nothing else to do,no life at all.
        So please let them at least have this so they can feel better.

      • Kasomoulis

        Actually u have no capacity to be friends with any one! Tell me who is a friend and “appreciates” Turkey being the big manufacturer of goods in “all these markets” as you clame!! Please name a few, especially a country neighbor of yours. They know you sir!
        You can start by admiting the wrongs you have done then we will see about getting used in leading anything! The Turkish Cypriots have spoken and they said GET OUT TURKEY! Oh you don’t know that? that is because u are listening to ur own citizens..Turkish settlers. wake up man!
        BTW before EU goes as you wish down to the dogs Turkey will be pulp for recycling!
        Think about it! tough to hear the truth right? Well then stop demonizing all others but yourselfs.
        Good day to you sir.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          Kaso:

          You can also use the monkey for the closing argument. When everything else fails, I always ask the monkey to convey my feelings :)

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBcjE3ryMs

    • Kasomoulis

      Dean,

      why the seminar? let them get there a bit earlier without your two cents!

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    To O1acimasiz:

    Size has nothing to do with economics. Luxembourg is the best European economy by far on a per capita basis.

    This G-20 thing you certainly misunderstand how it’s put together. They looked around the world and from every region they picked a few countries. When they looked at the Middle East they chose Saudi Arabia and Turkey as representatives of the region.

    Further to the east the chose India. And so on.

    When they came to North America, they chose all countries to be included (Canada, USA, Mexico).

    And when they looked at the whole of the Americas they added Brazil and Argentina.

    Are you trying telling me that there is anything special comparing a country with Argentina and South Africa? Or that the fact that Turkey is stuck behind Mexico’s economy?

    What the significance of such?

    The only significance of Turkey’s participation in G-20 is that how poor and isignificant your Middle East region is. There is nothing you can do about such. It’s like the one-eyed man leading the blind.

  • guest

    off course Turkey can afford that. and if they cannot, it is their problem, not ours.
    it would be our problem if we were their sellers. but we are not. why bother then?
    this article isn’t geopolitics, it is gossip.

  • Turkish

    every night you see the same nightmare during your sleep. Turks are coming!!!! What a difficult thing to be a Greek…. C*

    • Kasomoulis

      Ata Boy “Turkish”
      There goes Davutoglu’s Turkish psychology modification plan.
      I’d guess you need two more generations time and a few “winning wars” to achieve Davutoglu’s goal.
      Oh….. a cocoon around Turkey may save it from the centuries old and still ongoing
      schizophrenia.
      Much work ahead for EU to rehabilitate Turkey…. sorry to reafirm it.. Well let’s see if EU is worth the peace prize!

  • Tyroneez

    As i have always said
    now we see why turkey spends so much on OFFENSIVE armaments …
    So that it can intervene OFFENSIVELY in neighbouring countries …
    The last thing the Turkish People need , is even more KURDISH TERRITORIES to oppress … The Turkish armed forces can hardly control Easter Anatolia without killing thousands of civilians …
    The blundering Erdogan and davoutoglou will pay a high price , when the Turkish people eventually turn on them …
    What the people need are hospitals and schools not missiles

  • Andreas

    Just wonder this guys…. Spending $4 billion for military purposes is the only open window to us to realize what rellay Turkey is after for… Pressure on its neighboors who cannot afford this budget, to pass Ankaras demands to the greater geographic areas….

  • Passenger

    I am neither Turkish nor Greek.
    But while I read your conversation I realized that you will never understand each other.
    But excuse me I want to clarify something, maybe this will help…
    To Turkish:
    Please, kindly try to comprehence that Greece is a European country. They don’t have fight for life and country, they don’t have to rush for food, they don’t have to wait on hospital hall and they are not going to work more for less debt. They do not expect war for 100 years ahead. They were accepted to EU with already set rules and conditions that they are not going to revise. What you require them to do? Revolution? Their life is so upset with EU crysis that they dont trust worlds economic statistics. When Greece was accepted to EU they were said that life will be easier. Now they are disappointed with what was promised. They believe that life is made easier by an established community not by the individuals. Now the community collapses and They are very upset with that because they do no want to go back to the system of a fighting person. Please try to accept their thoughts.

    To Greek:
    Please kindly bear in mind that Turkey is a country that must survive since they do not belong to a community which provides shelter for them. And they do not have abundant natural, financal and technological resources like EU has. They must have a strong military to manage risks in the region. However, as defense gets more expensive as more advanced technologies are needed. Turkey has a big chronic foreign trade and currency balanca deficit. This not like Greece. Greece also has a big foreign trade and currency balanca deficit but as you are under EU shelter you even not feel it. In order supess carance Turkey needs to revert some portion of imported defence products to domestic industry. This is so simple to understand. Turkey is four times bigger and seven times more populated than Greece. If you divide its defence expenditures with these figures you will get the same defence budget as Greece has. You should understand that they are located in a region where 200-300 years peace is abolished. They have to keep military alive otherwise they cannot encounter all these troubles.

  • Passenger

    One more thing I would like to add is Economics that is argued here.

    All the arguments about GDP and inflation is completely misleading.

    The GDP growth rates for both Greece and Turkey are real ones not the nominal growth rates which normally is not served to mass media as it includes inflation rate too. The media bulletin usually issued by Statistics institutions emphasize real GDP not the nominal one. So Turkey is expected to grow by 3% and Greece will most probably grow by -3% this year.

    The constant GDP is a national income calculated with constant prices of some past year. The reference year is usually selected by Statistics departments. Somebody here mentioned 120 bn for Turkey. This a figure most probably calculated with the prices set in 1983. I guess since Turkey has revised the reference year after 1983. So this figure means that if it was 1983 now Turkey’s GDP would be 120 bn but in reality in 1983 Turkey’s real GDP was around 30 bn. It means that Turkey has increased its purchasing power by 4 times since then.
    Still I am not going to disturb you with what you are happy.