Putin’s Geopolitical Chess Game with Washington in Syria and Eurasia

Since reassuming his post as Russia’s President, Vladimir Putin has lost no minute in addressing the most urgent geopolitical threats to Russia internationally. Not surprisingly, at the center of his agenda is the explosive situation in the Middle East, above all Syria. Here Putin is engaging every imaginable means of preventing a further deterioration of the situation into what easily could become another “world war by miscalculation.” His activities in recent weeks involve active personal diplomacy with Syria’s government as well as the so-called opposition “Syrian National Council.”  It involves intense diplomacy with Erdogan’s Turkey regime. It involves closed door diplomacy with Obama. It involves direct diplomacy with Israel’s Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

Syria itself, contrary to what most western media portray, is a long-standing multi-ethnic and religiously tolerant secular state with an Alawite Muslim President Bashar Al-Assad, married to a Sunni wife. The Alawite sect is an offshoot of Shia Islam which doesn’t force their women to wear head scarves and are liberal by Sunni standards, especially in the fundamentalist places like Saudi Arabia where women are forbidden to even hold a driver’s license. The overall Syrian population is a diverse mix of Alawites, Druze and Kurds, Sunnis, and Armenian Orthodox Christians. Were the minority regime of Al-Assad to fall, experts estimate that, like in Egypt, the murky Sunni (as in Saudi Arabia) Muslim Brotherhood organization would emerge as the dominant organized political force, something certainly not welcome in Tel Aviv and certainly not in either Russia or China.1

 

According to an informed assessment by Gajendra Singh, retired Indian diplomat with decades of service in the Middle East and a deep familiarity with the ethnic mix inside Syria, were the minority Alawite regime of Al-Assad to fall, the country would rapidly descend into a bloodbath that would make estimates of 17,000 killed to date a mere prelude. Singh estimates, “A defeat of Assad led regime will lead to slaughter of Alawites, Shias, Christians, even Kurds and Druzes. In all, 20 % of a population of 20 Million.”2

 

That would be some 4 million Syrians. That ought to be food for thought for those in the West cheering on a murky dubious opposition “Syrian National Council” that is dominated by the ominous Muslim Brotherhood, and an armed opposition “Free Syrian Army” that has been reported even by the New York Times as rife with factional armed splits. Moreover the conflict were it to descend into a Libya-like internal bloodbath, would spill over across the Syrian border into Turkey. Syrian coastal area has a significant Alawite population and a large number of Alawites live in the adjoining Turkish provinces of Hatay and Antakya.

 

To sort out fact from fiction inside Syria is daunting as media are limited and opposition spokesmen have been repeatedly caught lying about events. In one recent instance, a UK journalist claimed he was deliberately led into a potential death trap by rebel opposition forces to score propaganda against the Damascus regime. The UK Channel 4 News’s chief correspondent, Alex Thomson, told AP that Syrian rebels set him up to die in no man’s land near the Lebanese border, saying they wanted to use his death at the hands of government forces to score propaganda points.3 And in one brazen example of political manipulation, BBC was recently caught publishing a photograph it claimed was of a massacre at Al-Houla on 25 May 2012, in which 108 persons are known to have died including 49 children. It turned out the picture had been taken by Italian photo journalist, Marco Di Lauro in Iraq in 2003.4

 

 

The stakes in this geopolitical chess game are nothing less than survival first of Syria as a sovereign nation, whatever its flaws and defects. More, it ultimately involves the survival of Iran, Russia and China as sovereign nations together with the other BRIC states Brazil, India and South Africa. Longer term, it involves the matter of survival of civilization as we know it and avoidance of a world war that would decimate the world population not by tens of millions as seventy years ago but likely this time by billions.

 

The Syria stakes for Moscow

 

Russia’s Putin has drawn a deep hard line in the sand around the survival of Al-Assad and Syria as a stable state. Few ask why Russia is warning of possible world war if Washington persists to demand immediate regime change in Syria as Hillary Clinton is doing. It is not because Russia is intent on advancing its own imperialist agenda in the Middle East. It’s in little shape militarily and economically to do so even if it had wanted. Rather, it is about preserving port rights to Russia’s only Mediterranean naval port at Tartus, the only remaining Russian military base outside the former Soviet Union, and its only Mediterranean fueling spot. In event of a showdown with NATO the base becomes strategic to Russia.

 

Yet there is more at stake for Russia. Putin and Russia’s foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, have made clear were NATO and the USA to launch military action against Assad’s Syria, the consequences would be staggering. Reliable sources in Damascus have reported the presence of at least 100,000 Russian “technical advisers” in the country. That’s a lot, and a Russian freighter carrying rebuilt Russian Mi-25 attack helicopters is reportedly bound for Syria, while several days earlier a Russian naval flotilla sailed for Tartus led by the Russian destroyer, Admiral Chabanenko.

 

An earlier attempt to send the rebuilt helicopters back to Syria which had earlier purchased them, was blocked in June off Scotland’s coast when it sailed under a non-Russian freighter flag. Now Moscow has made clear it will tolerate no interference in its traffic with Damascus. Russian Defense Ministry spokesman, Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, announced that “The fleet will be sent on task to guarantee the safety of our ships, to prevent anyone interfering with them in the event of a blockade. I remind you there are no limits,” he soberly added.5 In so many words, what Moscow is announcing is that it is willing to face a 21st Century version of the 1962 Cuba Missile Crisis if NATO foolishly persists in pressing regime change in Damascus.

 

As it has openly emerged that the so-called democratic opposition in Syria is being dominated by the shadowy Muslim Brotherhood, hardly an organization renowned for multi-ethnic democratic tendencies, a victory for a US-backed Muslim Brotherhood regime in Syria, Moscow also believes, would unleash a wave of Muslim-led destabilizations across Central Asia into republics of the former Soviet Union. China is also extremely sensitive about such a danger, only recently confronted with bloody riots of Muslim organization in its oil-rich Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Province, quietly sponsored by the US Government.6

 

Russia has joined firmly with China since both nations fell into a catastrophic trap over abstaining in the UN Security Council from vetoing the US Resolution. That US resolution opened the door to NATO destruction of not only Mohammar Ghaddafi, but of Libya itself as a functioning country. This author has spoken personally in Moscow and in Beijing since the Libya debacle asking well-informed persons in both places how in effect they could have been so short-sighted on Libya. They both clearly have since concluded that further advance of Washington’s agenda for what George W. Bush called the Greater Middle East Project is diametrically opposed to the national interest of both China and Russia, hence the iron opposition to the NATO agenda in Syria for regime change. To date Russia and China, Permanent veto members of the UN Security Council, have three times exercised their veto over new US-sponsored sanctions against Syria, the latest on July 19.

 

Putin and his Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov insist on a strict adherence to the proposed peace plan of former UN Secretary General Kofi Annan. Unlike what Washington prefers to generously read into it, the Six Point Annan Plan calls for no regime change, rather for a negotiated settlement and end to the fighting on both sides, a ceasefire.  

 

Washington’s Janus-faced duplicity

 

Aligned on the side of violent regime change in Syria are a bizarre coalition that includes, in addition to Washington and its European “vassal states” (as Zbigniew Brzezinski called European NATO members),7 most prominently Saudi Arabia, hardly a regime anyone would accuse of being a paragon of democracy. Another lead role against Damascus is being played by Qatar, home to US military as well as the blatantly pro-NATO propaganda channel Al-Jazeera. In addition, the Turkish government of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, is providing training and space to prepare armed mercenaries and others to flow over the border into neighboring Syria.

 

An attempt by the Erdogan government to send a Turkish Phantom air force fighter jet into Syrian airspace flying provocatively low, apparently in order to incite a “Gulf of Tonkin” incident to fan flames of NATO intervention a la Libya two weeks ago, fell flat when Turkey’s general staff issued a statement saying: “No traces of explosives or flammable products were found on the debris recovered from the sea.” Erdogan was forced to shift his line to cover face, no longer using the phrase, “shot down by Syria” and instead referring to “our plane that Syria claimed to have destroyed.”8 NATO has established a command and control center in Iskenderun, in Turkey’s Hatay province, near the Syrian border months ago to organize, train and arm the “anything but” Free Syrian Army.9 The Obama Administration, not wanting a full Syria war before US elections in November, reportedly also told Erdogan to “cool it” for now. 

 

Most westerners who take their knowledge of world affairs religiously from the pages of the Washington Post or CNN or BBC are convinced the Syrian mess is a clear cut case of “good guys” (the so-named Syrian National Council and its rag-tag makeshift “Free Syrian Army”) versus the “bad guys” (the Al-Assad dictatorship with its armed forces). For more than a year western media has run footage, some as noted,  not even filmed in Syria, claiming that innocent, unarmed opposition civilian pro-democracy populations are being massacred ruthlessly in a one-sided butchery by the regime.

 

They never explain how it would serve Assad to alienate his strongest asset to survival, namely the support of a majority of Syrians against what he has accurately named foreign intervention into sovereign Syrian affairs.

 

Indeed numerous eyewitness journalist accounts from inside Turkey and Syria including RT have alleged that from the beginning the “peaceful democratic opposition” had secretly been provided with arms and training, often inside camps across on the Turkish side. Professor Ibrahim Alloush from Zaytouneh University in Jordan told RT,

 

“Weaponry is being smuggled into Syria in large quantities from all over the place. It is pretty clear that the rebels have been receiving arms from abroad and Syrian television has been showing almost daily shipments of arms being smuggled into Syria via Lebanon, Turkey and other border crossings. Since the rebels are being supported by the GCC [Gulf Cooperation Council] and by NATO it is safe to assume that they are getting their financing and weaponry from the same sources that are offering them political cover and financial backing.”  10

 

One veteran Turkish journalist whom this author interviewed in Ankara in April, just back from an extensive tour of Syria, gave his eyewitness account of the capture of a small band of “opposition” fighters. The journalist, fluent in Arabic, was astonished as he witnessed the head of the rebels demand to know why their military captors spoke Arabic. When told that was their native language, the rebel leader blurted out, “But you should speak Hebrew, you’re with the Israeli Army aren’t you?”

 

In short, the mercenaries had been blitz-trained across the border in Turkey, given Kalashnikovs and a fistful of dollars and told they were making a jihad against the Israeli Army. They did not even know who they were fighting. In other instances, mercenaries recruited from Afghanistan and elsewhere and financed by Saudi money, including alleged members of Al Qaeda, make up the “democratic opposition” to the established regime of Al-Assad.

 

Even the ultimate US establishment newspaper, The New York Times, has been forced to admit that the CIA has been pouring arms into the Syrian opposition. They reported, “C.I.A. officers are operating secretly in southern Turkey, helping allies decide which Syrian opposition fighters across the border will receive arms to fight the Syrian government, according to American officials and Arab intelligence officers. The weapons, including automatic rifles, rocket-propelled grenades, ammunition and some antitank weapons, are being funneled mostly across the Turkish border by way of a shadowy network of intermediaries including Syria’s Muslim Brotherhood and paid for by Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, the officials said.”11

 

The International Committee for the Red Cross now classifies the conflict as a civil war.12 Peter Wallensteen, a leading peace researcher at the University of Uppsala and the director of the Uppsala Conflict Data Program, stated that, “It’s increasingly an internationalized civil war, and as we know from previous history, the more internationalized, the longer the conflict will be…there is a civil war, but now so many weapons are coming from the outside, that there is actually an internationalized civil war.” 13

 

According to Mary Ellen O’Connell, a respected legal scholar and professor of law and international dispute resolution at the University of Notre Dame, “The International Committee of the Red Cross statement means that the Assad regime is facing an organized armed opposition engaging in military force, and it has the legal right to respond in kind. The Syrian military will have more authority to kill persons based on their being part of the armed opposition than when Assad was restricted to using force under peacetime rules.”14 The rebel opposition groups claim it means just the opposite.

 

While the US State Department makes pious pronouncements of their supporting “democracy” and demanding Al-Assad step down and recognize the dubious and factionalized opposition of the Syrian National Council, an exile group dominated by the Muslim Brotherhood, Russia is working skillfully on the diplomatic front to weaken the Western march to war.

 

Putin’s shrewd diplomacy          

 

Now, no sooner did Vladimir Putin again take the office as Russia’s President on May 7 than he embarked on a complex series of diplomatic missions to defuse or hopefully derail Washington’s Syrian game plan. On July 16 Putin hosted a Moscow visit of Kofi Annan where he repeated Moscow’s unflinching support for the Annan Peace Plan. 15

 

Because of the considerable media distortions it’s useful to read the actual text of the six-point Annan plan:

 

    (1) commit to work with the Envoy in an inclusive Syrian-led political process to address the legitimate aspirations and concerns of the Syrian people, and, to this end, commit to appoint an empowered interlocutor when invited to do so by the Envoy;

    (2) commit to stop the fighting and achieve urgently an effective United Nations supervised cessation of armed violence in all its forms by all parties to protect civilians and stabilise the country.

    To this end, the Syrian government should immediately cease troop movements towards, and end the use of heavy weapons in, population centres, and begin pullback of military concentrations in and around population centres.

    As these actions are being taken on the ground, the Syrian government should work with the Envoy to bring about a sustained cessation of armed violence in all its forms by all parties with an effective United Nations supervision mechanism.

    Similar commitments would be sought by the Envoy from the opposition and all relevant elements to stop the fighting and work with him to bring about a sustained cessation of armed violence in all its forms by all parties with an effective United Nations supervision mechanism;

    (3) ensure timely provision of humanitarian assistance to all areas affected by the fighting, and to this end, as immediate steps, to accept and implement a daily two hour humanitarian pause and to coordinate exact time and modalities of the daily pause through an efficient mechanism, including at local level;

    (4) intensify the pace and scale of release of arbitrarily detained persons, including especially vulnerable categories of persons, and persons involved in peaceful political activities, provide without delay through appropriate channels a list of all places in which such persons are being detained, immediately begin organizing access to such locations and through appropriate channels respond promptly to all written requests for information, access or release regarding such persons;

    (5) ensure freedom of movement throughout the country for journalists and a non-discriminatory visa policy for them;

    (6) respect freedom of association and the right to demonstrate peacefully as legally guaranteed.15

 

There is no demand in the Annan Plan for Bashar al-Assad to step down before any ceasefire, contrary to what Hillary Clinton repeats after insisting the US also backs the Annan Plan. The Annan Plan calls for a diplomatic solution. The US clearly does not want a diplomatic solution. It wants regime change and evidently widening war across the Shi’ite-Sunni divide of the Muslim world.

 

Moscow and Beijing just as clearly want to draw the line and prevent chaos spreading from Syria. On July 19, again Russia and China, both veto members at the UN Security Council blocked a new US-backed resolution on Syria they insisted was designed to open the door to a Libya-like military intervention into Syria. The resolution had been drafted by British Foreign Secretary William Hague, and would have opened the door for a Chapter 7 resolution of the UN Security Council on Syria. Chapter 7 allows the 15-member council to authorize actions ranging from diplomatic and economic sanctions to military intervention.17 The Hague resolution demanded that the Syrian government in 10 days pull out all its heavy weapons from urban areas and return troops to barracks. Nothing was said about disarming the “Free Syrian Army.” Washington claimed it would only be interested in economic or diplomatic sanctions, not military. Of course. Hmmmm…

 

Putin has more than a little leverage to use with Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan. Erdogan was in Moscow just prior to the July 19 UN Security Council vote to discuss Syria with Putin.18  Turkey is the second-largest buyer of Russian natural gas, some 80% of its natural gas coming from Russia’s state-controlled Gazprom. 19 Turkey’s entire “energy hub” strategy of playing a key role in gas flows from Eurasia, the Middle east to Europe depends on gas from Russia and Iran. One year ago a $10 billion pipeline deal was signed between Iran, Iraq and Syria for a natural gas pipeline from Iran’s huge South Pars field to Iraq, Syria and on to Turkey, eventually connecting to Europe.20

 

Putin had also gone to Tel Aviv on June 21 to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu.21 Russian influence inside Israel is not minor. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union some six million Russians, mostly Jews, have emigrated to Israel over the past two decades. Ultimately Israel cannot be overjoyed at the prospect of a Muslim Brotherhood-run Syrian opposition coming to power in neighboring Syria. While few details emerged of the content of the talks, it is clear that Putin delivered the message that a “destroyed, disoriented and broken up Syria would not help Israel. Syria has the second, most well-organized Muslim Brotherhood organization after Egypt,” according to former Indian Ambassador K. Gajendra Singh.22

 

Then on July 11, Putin and Lavrov invited Abdel Basset Sayda, the new head of the US-backed opposition organization, Syrian National Council, to Moscow for “talks.” Sayda, who is from the Kurdish Syrian minority and has lived twenty years in Swedish exile, is a curious figure as opposition spokesman, from the Kurd minority in Syria, a man with little or no active political experience, clearly chosen mainly to hide the dominant Muslim Brotherhood profile of the SNC. Russia reportedly made it clear to Sayda they would continue to block any attempts to oust Assad and that the opposition need seriously adhere to the Annan Plan and negotiate a settlement. Sayda for his part made clear no negotiations until Assad is gone, a stance that is feeding the bloodshed.23 

There are signs in all the bloodshed and escalation of violence that Putin reached some quiet deal as well with Obama to keep war off the table until Obama is past the November elections. Russia recently agreed to reopen supply lines for US military supplies in Afghanistan at the same time Washington orchestrated an “apology” for the recent killings of civilians in Pakistan with its drones.24

 

Veteran roving journalist Pepe Escobar recently summed up the situation in all its grim reality:

 

 “Turkey will keep offering the logistical base for mercenaries coming from “liberated” Libya, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Lebanon. The House of Saud will keep coming up with the cash to weaponize them. And Washington, London and Paris will keep fine-tuning the tactics in what remains the long, simmering foreplay for a NATO attack on Damascus. Even though the armed Syrian opposition does not control anything remotely significant inside Syria, expect the mercenaries reportedly weaponized by the House of Saud and Qatar to become even more ruthless. Expect the not-exactly-Free Syrian Army to keep mounting operations for months, if not years. A key point is whether enough supply lines will remain in place – if not from Jordan, certainly from Turkey and Lebanon.”24



Notes

1 David Harding, How a meeting of the Muslim Brotherhood offers new hope to Syria’s rebels, The Daily Mail, 18 July 2012, accessed in http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2175295/How-meeting-Muslim-Brotherhood-offers-new-hope-Syrias-rebels.html#ixzz20zdHkpBv

 

2 Gajendra Singh, Syria: An update on internal, regional and international standoff, 18 July, 2012, email to author.

 

3 Raphael Satter, UK journalist Syria rebels led me into death trap, Associated Press, June 8, 2012, accessed in

http://news.yahoo.com/uk-journalist-syria-rebels-led-death-trap-195428598.html.

 

4 Richard Lightbown, Syria: Media Lies, Hidden Agendas and Strange Alliances, Global Research, June 18, 2012, accessed in http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=31491

 

5 Tom Parfitt, Russian ship with helicopters for Syrian regime sets sail again, The Telegraph, 13 July, 2012.

 

6 F. William Engdahl, Washington is Playing a Deeper Game with China, Global Research, June 11, 2009, accessed in http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14327

 

7 The vassal quote by Zbigniew Brzezinski:  “…To put it in a terminology that harkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial (American-ed.) geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together.”, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And It’s Geostrategic Imperatives , 1997,  p.  40.

 

8 Adrian Blomfield, Syria: Turkey jet crash may have been accident, The Telegraph, 12 July, 2012, accessed in

 

9 Pepe Escobar, Why Turkey won’t go to War with Syria, July 8, 2012, accessed in  http://www.voltairenet.org/Why-Turkey-won-t-go-to-war-with

 

10 RT, Syrian opposition getting ‘daily shipments’ of arms, 08 February, 2012, accessed in http://www.rt.com/news/syria-opposition-weapon-smuggling-843/

 

11 Eric Schmitt, CIA Said to Aid in Steering Arms to Syrian Opposition, The New York Times, June 21, 2012, accessed in http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/middleeast/cia-said-to-aid-in-steering-arms-to-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all

 

12 Mariam Karouny and Erika Solomon , Syrian forces surround rebels fighting in capital, Reuters,  July 16 2012, accessed in  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/16/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE8610SH20120716

 

13 Victor Kotsev , Chaos in Syria overshadows rebels’ hopes, Asia Times, July 18, 2012, accessed in http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NG18Ak02.html

 

14 Ibid.

 

15 AFP, Russia’s Putin to meet Annan for Syria talks, 15 July 2012, http://www.brecorder.com/top-news/109-world-top-news/67866-russias-putin-to-meet-annan-for-syria-talks-.html

 

16 “Six-Point Proposal Presented to Syrian Authorities”UN Security Council. 21 March 2012.

 

17 Voltaire Network, Russia, China veto UN resolution on Syria for third time, 19 July 2012, accessed in http://www.voltairenet.org/Russia-China-veto-UN-resolution-on

 

18 Rian.ru, Putin Meets Turkey’s Erdogan Ahead of UN Syria Vote, 19 July 2012 accessed in http://www.turkishweekly.net/print.asp?type=1&id=138726

 

19 F. William Engdahl, The Geopolitical Great Game: Turkey and Russia Moving Closer,  accessed in http://www.voltairenet.org/The-Geopolitical-Great-Game-Turkey

 

20 Pepe Escobar, op. cit.

 

21 AFP, op. cit

 

22 K. Gajendra Singh, Will Putin’s Israel Visit Calm Middle East Tempest?, June, 2012, accessed in http://tarafits.blogspot.in/2012/06/will-putins-israel-visit-calm-middle.html 

 

23 RT, Syrian National Council in Moscow for first-ever talks, RT.com, 11 July, 2012, accessed in

http://rt.com/politics/syria-russia-lavrov-moscow-talks-912/print/

 

24 Pepe Escobar, op. cit.

 

25 Ibid.

Source: globalresearch.ca

No related news.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Juicy article. Makes a nice read.

    • Dnesys

      Are you a greek orthodox? Greeks have an ally Jesus Christ. You bow down to Israel too much Dean. Whilst there may be an elite that favour an Israel pact you need to realise that Greeks are Christians and we do not take this lightly!!! It is who we are. So NO we do NOT do what Zionist Israel wants.

      I have utmost respect for Jews that follow the torah… but as for the Zionist talmud None.

      Take this as a religious rant if you want however last time I checked Greece means Greek Orthodox Christians the Eastern Church. Not Greece = Zionist Israel.

      • Eric R.

        You can either ally yourselves with us “Zionists”, or someday you will be paying jizya tribute to the Turkish Sultan – again. And more Orthodox churches will be turned into mosques.

        Your choice. If you choose the Sultan, you will get all the misery you deserve.

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          I am willing to bet he is not a Greek. This is the favorite Turkish tactic: to pose as and appear to be as anything but Turks.

          The very fact that he makes religion so central in his argument, makes him more of a Davutoglu follower than anything else. Because that’s precisely how the Turks view the argument. As an expansion of Islam in the West and therefore as a battle between religions.

          Which is anything but. The Turks claim that it’s religion which prevents them from joining the EU when in fact it’s attitude and their way of thinking.

          Don’t fall for this “we are all Greeks and Orthodox Christians” because that’s precisely how the enemy wants to frame it.

          And allowing the enemy to frame issues so that we can waste time debating them, is not very productive.

          • Dnesys

            I’m very Greek. After all the turks where supported by Zionists in the period you mention. Rename this site to defenseisrael and be done with it.

            Everyone makes spelling mistakes by the way… it is called being human.

            haha “Semi illiteracy” do you maybe mean semi literate?

            When did I state favour the sultan over Zionist? I favour none.

            In fact it is Israel and Turkey that are in cahouts as they have most to lose here….

            After checking who runs this site and as i mentioned above you need to rename it and stop using the words defence and greece.

          • Eric R.

            May I suggest then that you start learning Turkish, Arabic and the Koran? You may also wish to learn in which direction Mecca is located. Because if Greece follows what you want, that is exactly what you will need to do.

          • Kasomoulis

            Eric,
            The Greeks have been as an independent nation for 200 hundred years and 400 years before that as a millet (Ottoman term for nation)! You have no knowledge of our newer Greek history (last 700 years) thus I will give you that excuse for insulting the whole Greek nation that they better learn Turkish and learn the location of Mecca as an alternative to befriending Israel!
            Maybe you need to know during these last 700 years only the tough as nails Greeks survived the sword, endured the pressure and did not bow, and maintained their language and ancient culture to this day without having to leave their ancestral lands en mass…. and… without Israel’s friendship.
            So, having said that I have to also say this; The Greeks have been for the last fifty years in a difficult spot having to defend their shipping and tourist industries from the rogue and paranoid forces in that part of the world, and at the same time support a balance of power in the middle, which btw was a parallel to NATO policy. At no point did Greece behave in a hostile manner toward Israel, always not voting against Israeli issues either in the UN or NATO. Even though, I may add, for the last fifty years, the Jewish Diaspora in the US and elsewhere vilified Greece every chance they got from Hollywood to the European parliaments alleging that Greece was a center for weapon smuggling for the rogues. To put pressure on Greece to change its policies and become a lap dog for Israel, thus upsetting the balance of power in favor of Israel and have to deal with the consequences.
            So that we understand each other, the new alliance with Israel is currently making sense because the time is right for both countries to benefit in becoming a significant combined force that will enable them to defend their natural resources as a common front due to many factors. One of them being that the balance of power is now shifting and a new balance has to be found. Thus this alliance is incidental (as an Israeli minister stated when asked) and not opportunistic because of Turkey, as you seem to suggest!
            If you do not realize that the alliance benefits equally Israel and Greece, there is no point talking with you and exchanging any views, simply because you are biased if not more, equally as much as our Turkish friends who are visiting this spot once in a while.

          • Canavar

            Kas, Good post. I couldn’t agree more. If the Greeks wanted to “turn to Mecca” and learn Turkish they have had plenty of opportunity since Alp Arslan.
            In fact I’m sure that,in fact, plenty of Greeks the past did turn to Mecca, since genetic studies show the Anatolian Turks have only ~ %12-15% Central Asian ancestry. I have little doubt that many are “Turkified” Greeks.
            Doesn’t matter. The Pakistanis and some Indians are ethnically close but culturally the opposite in the extreme.
            Also I agree that Eric stepped out of line in telling the Greek people what they should do–very arrogant.
            Imagine the fuss if some did this to the Turks

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Canavar:

            The Turks are a mongrel race which has a lot of Greek blood in it.

            The Greeks of today however have a 90%+ genetic pure linkage to the ancient Greeks. This is verified by DNA and anthropological studies.

            Don’t try connecting us to the Turks because such would be an insult.

          • Canavar

            Well Dean, I meant NO insult. I have read on the web a %10-15% Central Asian component in the Turkish genetic makeup. Maybe that is wrong. Anyway I certainly didn’t want to equate Turks and Greeks. My point was completely different. It is that the Greeks for the last 1000 years HAVE had ample opportunity to become Muslims. They didn’t and Eric’s comment that they will because of the axe he is grinding is absurd. I’ve been reading about early Greek history and now I know that Greece has been Greek deep into prehistoric times, long before the Mycenaeans
            .

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            see my reply above due to the diminishing thread.

          • Kasomoulis

            anaver,
            Yea you guessed, I used the wrong name not realizing the site I was on… sorry no disrespect and no hiding here!!
            You are the one observing some real time Socratian exchanges.
            Have fun!

          • Canavar

            Yea, I wasted my time by reading all of these posts in my E-mail. Sounds like Socrates at 3.

          • Eric R.

            Kasomoulis,

            I was not trying to offend Greece; just Dnesys. However, please keep in mind that even fierce Greek pride and nationalism is not always an effective defense; despite a strong stand at Constantinople – you lost your spiritual capital in 1453, and were under Turkish domination until the 1820s (See? I am not ignorant of your history. I just interpret it differently.).

            As to your assertion that the alliance benefits both Israel and Greece – yes, of course it does! But you need to tell that to Dnesys, not to me. He is the one who is belittling it.

            Look, let’s not kid ourselves here. Greece could put up a very spirited defense of the country, and I do not think that even Erdogan, with all his ambitions, really wants to take over all of Greece. He wants claims to oil and gas in the Aegean and Mediterranean, and if he has to seize a couple of Greek Islands to do that, frankly, he has the army that can do it.

            But I was trying to say this — and you misinterpret me — if Erdogan and the Turks DID want to go all out and take over Greece, they do have the power to do it. It would be bloody, and they would have to be brutal to fight the resistance, but they could do it. However, they will not even think of it so long as they perceive an alliance with Israel. If however, Greece were to think like Dnysis and reject the help of the “zionists”, it would only embolden the Turks to try it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Eric R.:

            You say we lost Constantinople in 1453. There were 5,000 defenders in Constantinople with the majority of them being mercenaries. On the other hand there were 250,000 Turks surrounding the City.

            In the end the Turks came in through a small unguarded gate “left open” by “accident”.

            Are you sure we lost Constantinople, or was it lost by someone’s greed?

          • Canavar

            I think it’s crazy to say that the Turks could take over Greece. Of course world geopolitics (the US? ) makes it impossible. But if we want to play fantasy football, the history of Greek Greece probably reaches back to the Neolithic. How often has Greece been conquered during that period?
            Besides the winds are changing in Turkey–thank the Lord. The Erdogan, Gul, and Davetoglu foreign policy is getting more and more criticized by even the AKP’s Islamist friends. Read Hurriyet online and you will see.
            It used to be that only Burak Bekdil and Mustafa Aykol among their columnists had the guts to say what was glaringly obvious.. But just now I read two critical columns by Semih Idiz a former AKP stalwart. One was titled “AKP pursuing foreign policy outside its league”! A few months ago such a column from Semih Bey would have been unthinkable. So I don’t think an attack on Greece would be greeted favorably by too many other than the most ardent Erdogan fanatics.
            “The times they are a changin…”
            in Turkey. Better late than never.

          • Canavar

            I want to make two corrections to my last note.
            The first Greek presence in Greece probably came in the Bronze age not the Neolithic–perhaps as early as 2,500 B.C but certainly by 1,500 B.C. Even the conservative date gives the Greeks in Greece as long a history as the Jews in Israel.
            Aside from a brief period under the Crusaders, the Greeks were only conquered twice and then by the world mightiest empires.
            The first conquest was by Rome in the second century B.C. and the second by the Ottoman empire. But there was another conquest associated with the first; namely,the cultural conquest of Rome by the Greeks. The Ottoman conquest was also accompanied by a great Greek accomplishment. Namely, Greeks who had immigrated to Italy to escape the Ottomans helped trigger the Renaissance.
            I wrote this note to get the facts right. But the main point is that the modern Turks don’t have remotely the power of the only two entities who were able to conquer Greece over a period of 3,500 years. So everything else aside, the notion of the Turks conquering Greece to put it politely is absurd.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            It looks like Minoans were at least 3500 BC old.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization

            I would place the history of the Greeks circa 6000 years old.

      • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

        If I am not mistaken, from 1453 until 1821 (time of Greek revolution against the Ottoman yoke) all Russians were Orthodox Christians throughout such time period. And I can’t see how them being what they were helped in anyway Greeks for roughly 400 years.

        Unless you are suggesting that Christian Orthodoxy has become suddenly a factor in the western world when in fact religion’s influence is diminishing rapidly.

        Finally as to the Zionist label which I am sure you meant it as an insult. What is wrong with a core of patriots wanting their own country? What do you think the Greeks revolting in 1821 were, other than a group of equivalent Greek Zionists?

        Please try to focus on substance and not appearance.

  • Dnesys

    Starting a new comment as it gets truncated
    @Kasomoulis – Bravo

    I stand by my comment:
    “I have utmost respect for Jews that follow the torah… but as for the Zionist talmud None.”

    You want to have mutual Respect…. then stop quoting Greece = America = Israel.

    Greece = Greece.

    As kosmoulis stated we have been thrown to the wolfs by NATO and are bankcrupt. The EU well that just exacerbated the issue. The bankers dont get me started. We are not without fault however we realise this and it is a hard lesson.

    So you want us to continue down this path? If we do then yes as you say we will become so weak that an attack will happen. We say NO and enough is enough.

    • Kasomoulis

      Dnesys
      Thanks for you kind words however, I have to make a correction just in case I have been misunderstood.
      Israel had its own tough times to overcome and obviously they play their political game the best they can to benefit their nation.
      My take is this: The past is the past; I believe these are new times and as a Greek I feel Israel is closer to our religion and cultural behavior than any eastern neighbor in that neighborhood.
      Also I believe Greece needs Russia as much as Russia needs Greece and it is not wrong to affiliate with our orthodox brothers (I do not count Russia as easterners). However, we need to be truthful to ourselves and tell the truth as it appears from deeds not from Putin’s “love for religion”.
      We need to adhere to the alliances we currently participate in and maintain the trust of our allies. Israel is a powerful country and can become a trustworthy ally because of our common interests, the things I mentioned earlier and because of the current power vacuum in the EM, thus Greece and Israel have an opportunity to play a larger role in this part of the world together.
      Greece needs to also be ready for what may be coming in not the far future. Make no mistake, Turkey may have itself a “spring” and as an ally we need to be ready and have a plan in place, yes we may end up helping Turkey (still as Israel’s ally) because they are after all our allies too and that may also be beneficial in settling the past grievances and setting the Turkish claims to rest.
      So I believe NATO is not our enemy as you seem to indicate – our enemies are the past and current political elite that seem incompetent in getting out of their own selfish path and do only what is good for Greece. I have to also say that I am disappointed from the Greek political elite more for what they did not do than what they accomplished, even the disastrous financial path they chose, knowingly, which in its self may have been justified to beef up the country’s defenses – their mistake being in miscalculating the market and our EU partners’ reaction.
      As far as I am concerned the people of Greece are not seasoned to this new globalization and need to limit the terms in office for the PM and other posts along with giving the president the power of being able to command a sworn non-partisan force of tax collection in addition to his current duties (all executive in nature). I am not a political scientist, thus my “expertise” may be only from the point of view of an Engineer to “trial-and-correction” path! I believe the only path to ensuring the freedom of all citizens is the democratic system where all have the same chance for success to pursue each their own interest, weather an industry or individual contributor.
      Yes the banks and their GREED are to blame for a good portion of the calamity, this not being the forum for a discussion on the subject, I have to claim…. “Don’t get me going..” as you did.

      • Dnesys

        I see your point on NATO, however need some time to digest and further research.

        My thoughts on NATO is this (hence why I need more time to digest: why did we proliferate so much Military hardware at a cost that was so excessive? compared to what others pay… I guess your comments on the political Elite of Greece of course have a major part to play.

        Oxi’s comments
        “Greece needs to look east to Moscow and not west to Washignton”… I agree as it
        will rebalance and allow us to get a fairer outcome with future talks… I will leave and not mention the faith similarities and focus on the political

        An analogy I like to use now is that of a chess board. Greece was a pawn, and now has reached the top of the board and has become a Queen with alot of options to move…. in the following way:

        Why is everyone now wanting to help Greece, to partner with Greece in a new way? We have Amerikanakia, Evreei, Englese, Russia, and EU playing nice.

        Seems to be that to find significant reserves of OIL/Gas – (9Trillion worth from initial estimates.. I work for an Australian mining company hence this figure) Rare Earth Materials that will dent China’s monopoly on them.

        So IMO:

        Germans: Why do you stop Greece from bouncing back? Could it be that if we start to develop our resources it will Destroy the economies of the Northern EU Sweden/Finland/Norway especially? Digging in ice snow is now proving very difficult and having Greece with its reserves in the Ionian/Aegean which is easy to drill/mine, not to mention the options Germany has on the oil/gas of the North will become a very expensive call option to its economy. They could have had such a hedge if they treated Greece better… now as we did in WW2 and stopped your advance to Russia through the battle of Crete and hence the delay which meant you froze in the snow we are in a position to do this again, but economically…

        France/Italy: Holland/Monti why you now begging Freu Merkel to save it. Save it all? Could it be that your ventures in Libya are not proving fruitfull and are now looking to save Greece? Why?

        Spain: You stabbed us in the back months ago and now that Argentina booted respol out you want to come and oh Greece lets be friends. Why?

        Americano/England: Well you just want the resources, plus you very well know that in order for your USD/British Sterling to survive whats coming you need to destroy the Euro plus your top dog status is on its knees….

        U.S/Israel: Again Resources and you know that if Russia get its new pipelines from Iran to China through the Pakis and iran through to Syria and then Cyprus to Greece to EU then you lose the control of the Middle East. mmm wonder why you want to meddle around in Syria?

        Note: My difference between America and the United States as to me they are 2 different things…

        Iran: Well you want nuclear energy, and once you have it running at 80%, you will just pump and dump and sell all your Gas/Oil to whoever wants it namely Chinese.

        Chinese: You stopped helping the EU and Greece? Why because of the Rare Earth materials found? Did you collude with Germany? How are you playing this game with Russia?

        Troika: Well your just F’ed and you know it. Does Greece have a problem? No you do as you gave us the money. Now F off

        Oh what a tangled web we weave. So you see Greece/Greeks/ Byzantium whatever we are called; where once the New Rome… Now to those that state Hellenism we can become the New Jerusalem…

        Na Giati then mas theloune!!!

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          You just said you agreed with Oxi. Oxi is a Turk. So you agreed with a Turk for the need for Greece to approach Russia so that Turkey can become the favorite US child opposing both Greece and Russia with US funding on top of it.

          This tells me one thing: Not only you Aussies are down under but your heads also are resting deep in your rectums. Don’t tell me. The extreme sun burns all your brain cells and your IQ suffers as a result.

          So, Father Paiisios says the Russians will give us Constantinople. I tell you what. Tell the effing Russians to take it first and I will be there to accept the keys to the city. My babtismal name is Constantinos and I have six nails growing in my right foot. Therefore, I am the exadaktylos you have been looking for.

          • Dnesys

            Did you read my statement:

            “Greece needs to look east to Moscow and not west to Washignton”… I agree as it will rebalance and allow us to get a fairer outcome with future talks…”

            I did not state that we just give the keys to city to Russia or anyone for that matter, rather it will allow us to get a better outcome as TPTB will know that there is more than one person bidding for investment. Not just America, or Israel, or England, or Germany or Russia or China.

            To the best deal offered should get the investment…. as this will create more jobs and kick start the economy.

            I go back and forth and I cannot see how my IQ suffers because of of where my work takes me (and I’m not the only Greek that works for an International company)… In fact I have worked in the middle east which is way more hotter at times…. and can assure you that our heads are not in our rectums as you state.

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            So are you suggesting that Greece needs to align itself with Russia so that Greece could get involved into Kurdistan?

            Do you have any idea what is going on in the middle East right now?

            http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle-east/2012/08/02/russia-gazprom-neft-inks-deals-with-iraqi-kurds/TpTcogqf5YdHXwddxP2elI/story.html

            or do we need to educate you step-by-step:

            http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/weekend-opinions/kurdistan-reaches-toward-the-sea.premium-1.455675

          • Dnesys

            That is 2 points of view. There are many others others out there also.

            My concern when it comes to Greece is that it need to recover from the state it is in. To kick start its economoy, to create jobs for people so that they have the dignity in being able to pay there own way.

            To be able to go to the DR and get medicine not at 5 times the cost. To go for Micro-surgery and not have to take his/her own bandages.

            To not have to tell his father that is recovering from cancer that he has to be in pain because he cannot get the medicine he needs.

            So you see Greece needs the best investment for its wealth, and by wealth I do not mean Oil/Gas/Rare Earth materials I mean its people.

            So if we also bring Russia to the table of talks with the others and this benefits Greece, then I stand by this conviction.

          • Dnesys

            P.S I will add to the comments you presented: You go on about Turks… Wouldnt a strong Kurd make a weakened Turk?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            I am sorry, but I don’t think you are Greek.

          • Dnesys

            You are probably correct from your point of view as I’m a Christian before any other label can be put on me. My faith in GOD is above all else…

            To me a line on a map is a political ideal and I distinguish the 2.

            This is a different point of view from your own however I respect your view and have never stated that you are this and that your are that so extend this same curtousy to me.

            To me being Greek means to be part of the Greek Orthodox Church. Lets leave it at that as we will not be able to change this… as I will never impose this point of view on you.

          • Oxi

            I am not a Turk! I was Baptised in a Greek Orthodox Church!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Then state your full name and address. First name, last name and where do you live? And make sure that when we call the local Greek community where you live they know you exist. What Church were you baptised on?

          • Dnesys

            Dean, you are like a spoilt child when you do not get your own way, when someone does not agree with you.

            I have read alot of your comments.. You call me and others Turks… you insult our intellect, but you Sir are a Zionist!!! Plain and simple.

            You go on and on about Turks as do others… but you need to realise they are like the Austrians, like the Spanish…like the hungarians, the Venetians. You remember this time in history right?

            You said in another post we are not in the middle ages. Take on your own advice and stop living in 500BC….

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            How can I be a Zionist, when in fact I am Greek?

            And how can I ignore the fact that at this very moment there is a fully activated military alliance between Israel, Cyprus and Greece which THE only de facto reality one has to deal with?

            If you think that your opinion here or that of a few others could change Greek policy overnight, then go right ahead. I would like to see how this is doable.

            I would like to see when Israeli and Greek pilots are presently training together in Israeli desert, when the Greek and Israeli navies have been fused into one unit under a single command (in essence), and how the US and Greek special forces training all summer together allow for Russian ships visiting ports in Cyprus (aka refueling) to be interpreted as a possibility for Greece and her allies to shift focus and orientation.

            I truly like to see that and willing to learn something from it.

        • Kasomoulis

          Dnesys
          You are right as far as the “helpers are running to help us now”.. for the well known benefits!
          Remember what I said about the political system. Somehow the Greek politicians, at least up to a couple of years ago were so taken by their own anticipated success that they would just hide behind their privileged crowd. Thus spent their time in office putting together a network building a matrix of those in high public and private positions to enhance their personal influence with new hires and have totally neglected their constitutional duties to serve all Greeks equally! This overwhelmed the national treasure with the burden of 40% more people than needed and the rest is history. From what we can observe now one thing seems obvious (unless we do not know everything yet), the politicians did not give in to the pressures to negotiate Greek lands and seas with our adversaries because of fear it would have been so obvious to the voter – I assume – or maybe they know this is one area the Greeks would not tolerate.
          The other large expenditure and most obvious to the observer is the defense. Yes the HAF, navy and army have the best, thus expansive systems because quality in this sector is paramount to being able to do the job at hand. So, the f16s the tanks and the ships were the least expensive alternative to counter our adversary’s capability – this may have been the best well spent money Greece ever invested in. Remember each time they are called to evaluate new hardware it takes money and great effort to proof as fit for use in the intended area and it may be requiring decades for results. Just go and buy anything only for the numbers will not do! As a result Greece has one of the best air and sea defense in the Mediterranean if not the globe! You can say so what? The proof is in what you said…. No one will help unless they need you – and make no mistake there is no free lunch… whatever we have to do we will have to do it ourselves alone! Of course it requires strong relationships with other nations and wisdom in diplomacy – that is why we need knowledgeable wise politicians voted by the people for the people. I am suggesting take the tax collection out of the government’s hands and give the task to a permanent, sworn, non-partisan agency because so far the systemic capability and people’s trust has been lost! (this is only one of the major areas for improvemnt in the system).How can you trust the government that does not trust you? This resulted Germans humiliating Greece by sending tax collection experts – we should be taking notice and act!

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Canavar:

    Many Greeks of Byzantium did convert to Islam for either fear of life or taxation (Muslims did not pay taxes).

    But religion has nothing to do with race. Many of those turkified Greeks were in fact crypto-Christians who continued to worship in secrecy.

    The point is that whoever is Greek today is Greek because of blood not religion. Christianity is but a small parenthesis in the history of Hellenism.

    As far as the definition of Turks, here is the textbook definition:

    “The name Turk was first employed by the Chinese to designate the nomadic people who controlled the vast area from Mongolia to the Black Sea until 924 AD.

    Turks are today found in Turkey, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, and Chinese Turkestan (Xinjiang). Their cultures and racial makeup vary considerably due to ethnic admixture. The only similarities among them are religious and linguistic: virtually all Turks are Muslim, and Turkic languages belong to the (non-Indo-European) Altaic language family spoken in western and central Asia.”

    Therefore the very concept of Turkey is Chinese and hence non-European.

    As far as genetics are concerned the modern Turks, even with significant admixture, they are still very far from the Greeks whose only similarity are the Italians (i.e. earlier Mediterranean peoples) and the Thracian element of Bulgarians.

    In terms of genetics Turks belong to an entirely different cluster closer to Iranian and Arab (or other Middle East populations).

  • Oxi

    Greece needs to look east to Moscow and not west to Washignton…

    The west is fading and done and Greece needs to look at security and only Russia will provide REAL security. Just look at how the west is abising Greece economically all in the name to save their precious banks!

    No morals nd no values in the west!

    • Dnesys

      I just clicked on your profile and to be honest I agree with alot if not most of your comments/posts… You have been labeled a turk. Is this so?

      • Oxi

        Litening to Dean, the big apoligist for the West is not recommended since he cannot make up his own opinions without approval from his masters…

        I do not bow to Mecca, I bow to Constantinopoli like my Greek Orthodox brethren…never will I be a turk!

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          Here is a hint for you, since you want to continue your Karagioz theater.

          When you use the word “bow”, it means you are not a Greek. And Greeks don’t bow to Constantinopoli. Greeks own Constantinoupoli.

          • Oxi

            By using the term ‘bowing’ I am referring to bowing to the head Bishops that oversee the Orthodoxy world, what you do not bow to your priests or Bishops before you kiss their hand?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            No.

          • Oxi

            So your not an Orthodox Christian are you?

          • Dnesys

            He is not Oxi. But that does not mean he is not Greek. I stand by my comment that a Russia at the table with Greece is far better than without.

            This does not in anyway mean we just cut ourselves off from the rest of the world as this will not be advantous to Greece.

            However Russia is already there hence why the powers that be have now changed there tune. They know that if Greece leaves EU/NATO the avalanche will speed up drastically.

            Oxi what you refer to in some of your tone I summize as an Anti-Zionist feeling and this I agree with. Most of my Jewish friends are opposed to it and mark my words the movement is bankcrupt and is falling apart on its own and you can see this happening on a daily basis.

            Most Jews understand what Zionism is and they are against it.

            That is what will kill off Zionism. Give this time and you will see.

            So in terms of Syria I agree, however Greece IMO is in no position unfortunately to resist… (they have done a good job at weakening us) like we did with Serbia and not allow NATO to use Greece as a staging post. If you remember with Serbia we said “Oxi” and rightly so…

            So lets not buy into this Only one or the other as I did also… but state that we want Russia, NATO, America, England, China all to participate…

            This will allow us to get them to fight and we to rebuild… Read the Art of War

            They talk of us being turks, that one day we will be muslims, that we will pay all the taxes to arabs.. are you serious…

            We pay all our taxes to the west TODAY, what is the F’n difference? All our GDP is taken by them what is the F-n difference?

            Most are becoming very secular and are in fact as you state morally bankcrupt taking on the Americaniko/modernismo? How is this different to being a musoumano? or arava.

            We could have bought so much more military hardware from Russia as an offset.. a hedge against the systems deployed in Turkey but this is an inconvenient truth…as are most of my comments.

            @Bill
            “The target is Iran! It is not that anyone gives a rat’s ass if the Iranians get nukes; it is the fact that they are radical and rogue and that frightens other nations”

            Here you are wrong! When has Iran threatened anyone before it was threatened first? How much trade did Greece have with them? How much of their Oil money was in Greek banks? No other EU country but Greece… Dont fall into the trap as you advise not to polarise

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Who says I am not Christian Orthodox?

            But I am not stupid to engage with a Turk in a religious conversation. Religion is off the table in matters between Greece & Turkey.

            Only amateurs engage in discussion with religious undertones aiming to underscore geopolitical differences.

            As to how Christians Russians are why don’t you ask them? Ask a 40 to 50 year old Russian that all of his/her life grew up as a communist, how much significant is religion today in his/her life?

          • Dnesys

            @Bob have a look at some info on tarpley.net if you have the time. i would be interested to hear some comments from yourself and from others. Whilst yes it is heavily Presstv from IRAN/RT from Russia, just a different point from MSM of the West

          • Bob

            No one will disagree with you on that befriending the Russians for the right reason! Diplomacy and wisdom is the name of the game, besides the Russians are, like you said, our orthodox brothers. If you have winners you must have losers too (one Euro lost must have been won by someone right?) The deal is to have equal give and take, which is no different than buying something -You buy what you paid for my man! I am not saying you should have wise-guys as diplomats – I am saying you should have diplomats who know what to exchange for what. The Russians need Greece so they can hike the Aegean with ease and Greece needs Russia for their muscle to let the Dardanelles free from the Turks for our ships to move freely and to exchange the Aegean passage for the leverage on Turkey through Russia so Turkey can leaves us alone, so Greeks do not have to spend as much for deterrent.
            Please ask yourself, and maybe you need to research a bit more; How many neighbors of Iran have complained about the Iranian nukes; The Saudis have already inquired for nukes because they want to be ready, ask Iraq and the Arab states, even the Europeans, even Russia. The problem is as I stated it; no one knows or can predict the future of the Iran regime and its behavior – I mean if you are a westerner by location – never mind your beliefs, you must realize this is an issue! I have said nothing about Israel because, yes we know they have the nukes and one will say so why can the Iranians not have nukes too – darn it I just made my opinion clear, remember? Who gives a rat’s ass? But if you have listened to news the last few years Ahmadindjad is on the warpath – would you guaranty they will not make an attempt? Then what? Think about it! On the other hand the Israelis have the nukes for a few years now; have they threatened anyone? No! why? Because they are a democracy and know this is one thing no government can play diplomacy with unless you are Russia or America where these are not said but understood to be deterrent issues! The consequence could be just about the end of all as we know it!!

          • Dnesys

            Fair call… But oh the Shock horror!!! it looks as though I agree with a Russian, with a Persian, a Syrian and even a Turk…

            aman. Ti elinas eime ego?

            I gather you are in the USA?

            In any case I agree that if we do not nip this all in the butt very soon the consequence as you state will not be good.

        • Bob

          Oxi
          Can you explain what you mean with “apologist”? just curious Bob here!

          • Oxi

            ‘Apologists’ are those that defend as with this case the West and their every action even if it is wrong…

            Anybody that actually pays attention to what goes on on Syria knows the West is supporting islamist’s, salafist’s and al qaeda that not only what another nation to become islamist but to also ETHNICALLY CLEANSE all Christians within Syria just like what is going on in Syria and what has happened in Iraq post-Saddam and now Egypt post-Mubarek…

            So to defend the West’s position even you know these islamist’s are in fact ‘terrorists’ by Western definitions means you are constantly being an apologist for their crimes and lack of morals by accepting this behavior. Makes sense now?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            No, you continue to maskarade as a “christian” when in fact you are a fanatic islamist.

          • Oxi

            Both of my parents are from Greece…

            Andritsnia and Samos…

          • Bob

            Ask your dad to spell “Adrisnia” for you!
            If the place is the one I think, there is so much history there to fill a museum, and the beaches are great!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            And there many people in Greece whose parents were from the Black Sea coastal areas , Smyrna and Constantinople. So what?

          • Bob

            It seems you are an OXI man, That is Tsipras’ line! not that I think Tsipras is a bad guy but he needs to proove himself… just no…non….no will not do when the dust clears!

            I don’t get it; make yourself clear son! You say the opposition in Syria is radical Ms and accuse the West of crimes and moral degradation – Do you seriously believe the current Syrian regime will survive whether the West gets involved or not? Get real.. Yes the opposition are Sunnis that may prove very difficult to control – thus isn’t it better to start monitoring the situation now and make sure those that will come will be constrained to prevent atrocities? Iran was exactly that in 1970s and look what the world got?
            Russia and China have interest in the EM and Middle East as well and they like to be present, not underestimated and claim their trophy! Getting all this hardware in the EM, is chest thumping to show their capabilities – and I mean all… Russia, America, China and all the Syrian neighbors! Mark my words, as soon as the West and Russia agree on the future Syrian government this whole thing will blow over! Also do not discount the Kurds this time around.. A Kurdish spring in Turkey may be the next step in the way of globalization – unfortunately it is not in Greece’s power to oppose globalization (not that it would make much difference).
            Only if you are really Greek… take my word, it is good to question things and have certain principles, but you need to make sure these principles are not driven by sentiment. Polarizing one’s self in a certain topic without logic and common sense is futile.
            Why can you not see the obvious? The target is Iran! It is not that anyone gives a rat’s ass if the Iranians get nukes; it is the fact that they are radical and rogue and that frightens other nations. The way it is currently trending, Iran will make a stupid move with their nukes that would cause the west and Russia to react so harshly that it will turn out devastating for Iran. I don’t believe anyone wants that outcome

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Bob:

            Without exception all Turkey and Turkish press were behind Tsipras and openly rooting for him during the pre-election campaign. Because it’s standard Turkish policy to support any leftist movement in Europe because the policies of the left encourage and augment Islamist penetration into Europe. The Turks loved Papandreou’s soft approach and absolutely hate Samaras who is going to declare the Greek EEZ on them.

          • Kasomoulis

            Dean
            Yea you are right! I said as much to our friend Tyroneez!

          • Leonidas

            As I said, Tsipras and his “bad part of the Pasok” are Twats.

          • Oxi

            Oh don’t get me wrong, Syria has to be toppled before any attack on Iran must begin!

            And Syria has to be toppled soon, very soon and the West is trying everything they can to win BUT Syria is stronger and better organized and supplied than Libya was. Saudi Arabia and Qatar were so certain Assad would fall after the al qeada style terror attack in Damascus they were readying for post-Assad BUT the Syrian military counter-attack put an end to that.

            Now they seek Aleppo and once again Syrian ground forces stand ready for a full-scale attack and helicopter and MiG’s are now being used to pound jihadist positions. Only opening I see is along the Turkish border where Kurds are operating and with Syria so focused on Aleppo they leave that border area exposed for a land grab to establish a base of operation within Syria. And with Turkey conducting tank exercises along the border with Syria this week, could things explode?

            Syria could only respond with helicopter gunships and fighters, the reason Turkey moved many missile batteries to the Syrian border.

            The saving grace for Syria here is not only the Russian/Chinese fleet of warships of the coast packed with advanced radars and anti-air systems but also the weapon deliveries via land through Iraq and Turkey from Iran that are continuing to supply Syria with plenty of weapons and ammunition to survive this long and then some.

            As Israeli intel reports that Iran may have only weeks before they are attacked, Syria needs to go. Though the U.S. will most likely take on Iran where Israel will focus on Syria and Hizzbolah. That assessment does not take into account the Russian/Chinese warships operating in the area though.

          • Kasomoulis

            Oxi
            «Που να σε φάει η ¨εχιδνα»
            Your ideas here are not coherent which shows either not much thought before expressing them or you are just bullshitting us in a very concerted manner which I doubt! And I have no time to play father. Why don’t you ask your dad to spell the town he is coming from in Greece! What is your hidden agenda?
            Have a great day anyway, whatever you are!

          • Leonidas

            Bob, Tsipras is a Twat. God Forbid that Tsipras ever gets a chance to prove himself.

          • Bob

            OXI… OXI…. OXI… OXI my daughter said that whenever she had to do homework or go to Greek school.

            Good I don’t qualify to be an “apologist” Because the one thing I believe strongly is an independent democratic country with indepenend government that deals with everyone and everything for what is right for the ETHNOS… without becoming a rogue and anathema to its neighbors!

          • Oxi

            ‘OXI’, the reason I use it is to remember October 28, 1940 the Allies first victory in WWII…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            BS. You only picked Oxi from the Annan plan which the only wat Turks know what Oxi means.

            And stop pretending you are a Greek.

          • Oxi

            Why are you so obsessed with acting like a child and calling anyone who disagres with you a Turk?

            I told you I am not a Turk, NOW LEAVE IT ALONE!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            what are you then?

            Certainly not a Greek.

            Do you live in Londonistan?

          • Oxi

            I am 100% Greek that currently resides in the debt laden U.S. and sick of the war mongoring from the U.S.

        • Dnesys

          good advice… Ignore the beast, starve the beast…

  • Oxi

    Rumopr has it that Russia is responding to the West’s bullying by planning to opening military bases in Cuba and Vietnam since the U.S. cannot keeps its promises (Bush to Gorbechev about not to expand NATO back in 1991 and Bush Jr. to Putin in 2001 on not to surrond Russia with missile defense, etc…)

    Rumor has it that Russia has deployed mobile nuclear ICBM’s on Cuban soil at the Lourdes facility!

    NATO and the U.S. are playing a dangerous game here and Syria could see direct confrontation between Russian Marines and NATO Special Forces operating alongside ‘terrorists’ within Syria soon!

    And despite a fleet of Russian warships operating in the Eastern Med., over the past week a Chinese Destroyer crossed the Suez Canal to join the Russia flotilla! This is becoming very serious folks!

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      Nonsense. This is the AKP propaganda.

      • Oxi

        Here is the link to the Chinese Destroyer that went through the Suez Canal, confirmed by both Egyptian and Israeli media:

        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4261923,00.html

        • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

          What the significance of 1 ship from anybody’s navy anywhere in the world?

          Unless you have a Chinese fleet of 50 ships in the Mediterranean such movements are useless.

          What’s the significance of a Brazilian destroyer in the China sea? Nothing really.

          • Oxi

            That 1 warship is backed by China’s nuclear fleet… get it now?

            Same with Russia’s small naval flotilla of 12 warshipsear Syria… they are backed by Russia’s entire strategic nuclear fleet…

            Attack any of these warships (NATO that is) and Russia/China willrespond with nukes! Russian boomers have been deployed to the world’s oceans recently not seen since 1991 and most will most likely park off the U.S. east coast as a deterrant to NATO bullying around the world!

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Are you such an amateur?

            What nuclear fleet nonsense are you talking about?

            Do you think that nations push nuclear buttons for losing a ship or other military hardware?

          • Oxi

            In today’s climate, that would be a yes!

            You think Russia will accept the sinking of one of their warships by NATO? It would spell all out war bud!

            If I was Moscow and NATO attacked one of their warships, retailition would be on the table…

            And the very fact that Russia has been warning NATO over the years that as they encroach to Russia’s borders and build a vast missile shield specifically to target Russia’s ICBM fleet, Russia reserves the right for pre-emptive attacks upon NATO if they are even threatened!

            Read into this new Russian policy before you make silly remarks…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            why would NATO attack Russia?

            Russia is cooperating with NATO on many issues, including missile shields.

            What NATO are you talking about? NATO = 99.99% USA.

          • Oxi

            Do you not understand what that missile shield is targeting? It is targeting Russia’s ICBM fleet, why else would you park missiles in Poland, NATO warships in the Baltic…

            C’mon it’s right in front of you…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras
          • Oxi

            Russia has already begun strategic nuclear boomer patrols off the U.S. coast:

            http://www.examiner.com/article/russia-begins-increased-submarine-patrols-off-the-coasts-of-the-united-states

            http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120209/171236845.html

            Russia is also massing ground troops and air assets near Iran’s border under the cover of planned military exercises this fall:

            http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/130393/russian-exercises-in-caucasus-prepping-for-iran-war.html

            Is this all simply coincidence or they know something we don’t?

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Oxi, why such compound nonsense?

            Why would we care what Russia does or does not do? We are not Turkey. We are Greece.

            Both the US and Russia are friendly states to us. Why do we have to choose one when we have both?

          • Oxi

            When Greece leaves the EMU, choices will have to be made…

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Why would Greece leave the eurozone? What would be the benefit?

          • Kasomoulis

            Λακεδαιμονιε, οι δυο μασκεράδες είναι όπως το είπες χαλδούπηδες απο την αγκυρα.
            Χαλάς το καιρόσου με τους ηλίθιους

          • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

            Entaxi, emeis paizoume tora,

          • Kasomoulis

            Why not they join Turkey and pursue the policy of our easterner relatives right? A heck of a deal problem solved!!!

      • Oxi

        Here is the link to Russian mobile nuclear ICBM’s possibly moved to Cuba:

        http://www.prisonplanet.com/report-russia-moves-nuclear-missiles-to-cuba.html

  • Oxi

    To carry the conversation far below about Greece looking to Moscow for security insteade of NATO after they leave the EU…

    Listen, Turkey just announced they will be testing and deploying their own ballistic missiles later this decade and they could be nuclear as they too seek nuclear weapons to counter the imbalance with Isreal.

    You actually think the U.S. will give or allow nuclear weapons to defend Greece from Turkey?Greece has been bankrupted by the EU bankers and they will not be able to aford a nuclear weapons system nor even ballistic missiles. Turkey sees the advantage and is taking full value while Greece lies begging for handouts! Bosnia and now Kosovo have turned islamic, soon FYROM and then a weakened Greece and Serbia down the road?

    Russia will and can provide the nuclear deterrance Greece will need in the coming years against Turkey by not only supplying the best anti-air missile systems like the S-400 Triumph or better but actual nukes like mobile tactical Iskander nuclear weapons, heck even base Russian warships on Greek soil will be more than enough to keep Turkey away!

    To wait for NATO command to come and protect Greece is wishful thinking despite their commander being a Greek-American right now…

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      This is the biggest load of crap I ever heard:

      1. Turkey would be allowed to carry nuclear weapons of its own? She will be erased from the map and the face of this earth from even thinking so.

      2. Why would Greece need to be under Russian nuclear protection, when she is both under the US and Israeli umbrellas already?

      Keep talking Oxi. The more you talk the more you reveal your undisputed Turkish origin. The crap you are talking about only the AKP morons are promoting. Not even the Turkish military has such false ambitions. This is all Nonsense of Grandeur made in Turkey and of Turkish turknology.

      • Oxi

        You actually think the U.S. will come to Greece’s rescue after what we just saw what the U.S. based World Bank and ECB has done to them?

        Your delusional and stop apologizing for the U.S. all of the time!

      • Oxi

        The first steps to going nuclear is establishing delivery platforms, Turkey has just announced plans to expand their ballistic missile fleet…

        http://www.nti.org/gsn/article/turkey-studying-possible-new-ballistic-missile-pursuits/

      • Oxi

        Can you refrain from this ‘Turk’ nonsense and ‘AKP’ nonsense and act like an adult!

        I am neither Turk or whatever the other nonsense you spill out.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    For those pretending to offer “good advice” to Greece to somehow join forces with Russia, this is the Russian version of the Black Sea Fleet (which covers the Mediterranean Sea).

    How can anyone be credible in suggesting a military alliance? This fleet means nothing in military terms:

    http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20120801/174900219.html

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    BTW, all this nonsense about the significance of Chinese fleet in the Med:

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2012-08/05/c_131761908.htm

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

    Canavar:

    It looks like the history of Greece starts from the neolithic Age, eventhough most historians consider the official start from the Cycladic and Minoan civilizations:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Greece

  • Frixona

    Listen boys and girls the world show is runed by 4 countries namely, RUSSIA , US, ENGLAND and GREECE. The mother land of US is England . The mother land of RUSSIA is GREECE.
    The US system is working with GREEK ideas . The GREEK language is devided into all seiences Biology, Chemistry, Medicine, Sociology, Psychology, Astronomy and above all Mathematics. The Russian Church is controled by the GREEK monasteries.
    Greece has three daugters EUROPA, AMERICA and RUSSIA.

    This is for you Dean

  • Frixona

    For those who dont know during the Byzintine era the Russians acquired their Greek Orthodox religion.

    This is special for you Mr Dean

    • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras

      Frixona:

      Yes. Cyrillus and Methodius were two Greek Orthodox monks sent by Byzantium to Christianize the Slavs and also gave them their Cyrillic alphabet.

      But those were the politics of Constantinople. Which have very little to do with Greece.

      Another way of looking at it so that you understand it. The Russians did indeed fight wars with the Ottomans so that Romanians and Bulgarians are free today because of Russian interventions(especially Bulgarians). In other words, there is a history of Russian interventions to help fellow Christian Slavs.

      But Greeks? When did Russia (whether Tsarist or Communist) do anything for Greece? They even let Greeks bleed other Greeks in a bloody civil war (where Greece lost more soldiers that WWI and WWII combined, or any other conflict for this matter) without telling the Greek communists that a Yalta convention put Greece under the sphere of influence of the west.

      In other words, the Russians didn’t even have the courtesy of telling EAM and ELAS that they were abandoning them to fight on their own. Which cost even more Greek lives in the process.

      • Dnesys

        The Crimean War!!!

  • Frixona

    The problem in Greece sir Dean is just only apparent for our times.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Phoevos Dean Plassaras